Top builders/luthiers in the UK?

[BigRedX]

13 hours ago, bubinga5 said:

This is going to be controversial but Ive yet to play a bass thats made in the UK that has blown me away like a lot of USA/Made in Japan basses do. Tone wise I mean. Not sure why. The GB Spitfire left me cold like a wet fish tone wise.I actually thought it was awful.. The US Lakland 55 that replaced it was like day and night, as soon as I picked the Lakland up it felt alive. Sei Jazz was wonderfully made but too polite sounding. of course this is only two examples. Would love to try a Shuker. But most UK basses seem to be a bit too CUSTOM. Off the shelf made in the UK all round fantastic basses are a bit thin on the ground. 

 

This is because on the whole UK luthiers have steered away from the Fender copy market, and so they should because IMO it is over-saturated at all price points. Generally UK builders can't complete with the US manufacturers let alone the Far East on price, so they have tended to stick with the custom market. Even those with set standard designs tend to build to order and adjust the specification to the customer's requirements.

 

I'm not surprised that you didn't get on with Sei if it wasn't built specifically for you. When I went to pick up mine, Martin was still making some final adjustments, so while I waited he let me have play on another Sei - also 5-string and fretless - which was very nice but didn't speak to me like mine did when it was finally ready, as IT HAD NOT BEEN BUILT TO MY SPECIFICATION. This is whole point of the custom market; you get your chosen luthier to make what you want, not what someone else has specified and not what someone else might want should you come to sell it. If you are not brave and single-minded when you spec your bass you are unlikely to be happy in the long run.

 

Production-line instruments aren't financially viable in the UK right now. For me the whole point of custom luthiers is that they offer something that the mainstream doesn't. If you are already happy with a production-line instrument why would you want a custom one? If you are not, then you need to be brave and specific exactly what you want when getting your bass built.

[mario_buoninfante]

On 06/12/2022 at 11:42, LukeFRC said:

We're not as good at building up our brands and them creating brand equity as our US cousins? 

Some of the US brands also has a very distinctive core tone, if you want a Sadowsky sound you probably need a Sadowsky. If you want the Ken Smith thing, buy a Ken smith etc...

With the exception of Status and Wal a lot of our builders make instruments less focused on their core tone thing. Gus I guess unmatched visually.
I think that makes it a harder sell to get brand equity... Every single Overwater I've played and heard has been an amazing professional level instrument - and with a tone that could sit anywhere in any genre. I guess that's why so many pro players use them... but that tone that could sit anywhere also means it doesn't stand out as much? 
(I dunno, that's my theory, maybe I'm just annoyed I didn't buy that Overwater @briansbrew was selling last week?  )

 

I suspect that this also due to the fact that these US brands are the ones used on a lot of music by a lot of artists we've all been listening too.
And the last century the US have dominated the media too, so we've all been exposed to their music, their brands, their artists, etc..
I'm not quite sure they have a more peculiar or unique sound, but it's the sound we hear on records though, and those are the instruments our favourite artists held.
Then of course, there are some example of UK brands that reached the same level of popularity and are immediately recognisable (look and sound-wise) like Wal, but I suppose we can all agree these are actual exceptions.

 

[Sibob]

On 07/12/2022 at 10:36, BigRedX said:

I know Fodera bang on about how they are based in NYC when in fact they are down by the docks in Brooklyn...

 

To be fair, if you Google Fodera, the first site that comes up is there's and in the title it says "Handmade In Brooklyn".

 

Si

[tubbybloke68]

What abou Brian Eastwood? The prototype short scale that he made for Scott Whitley  looked bloody amazing, the forerunner of the chowny swb production ones.Beautiful workmanship I thought 

Edited December 9, 2022 by tubbybloke68
Spelling mistake

[BigRedX]

6 hours ago, Sibob said:

 

To be fair, if you Google Fodera, the first site that comes up is there's and in the title it says "Handmade In Brooklyn".

 

Si

 

Fair enough, but it hasn't always.

[joe_geezer]

https://www.anacondabasses.co.uk/

[chrisgriff]

Came across Bassworks on Instagram, based in Hinckley, they look like quality instruments too, 

http://www.bassworks.co.uk/home

and their Instagram is quite informative. No affiliation btw

[LeftyJ]

Only UK builder I have any hands-on experience with are Status, who are great. But I've been drooling over many a UK build that was posted on this forum, especially the many beautiful ACG's that have been pictured here were particularly GAS-inducing. 

[SamPlaysBass]

Second for @Bassworks. Bruce has got some really innovative designs and extensive engineering experience. New breed for UK luthiers and I’m genuinely excited by the engineering he’s putting into his basses. 
 

http://www.bassworks.co.uk/home 

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

Second for @Bassworks. Bruce has got some really innovative designs and extensive engineering experience. New breed for UK luthiers and I’m genuinely excited by the engineering he’s putting into his basses. 
 

http://www.bassworks.co.uk/home 

 

Looks like more Fender copies to me....

[chrisgriff]

13 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Looks like more Fender copies to me....

I suppose the same could be said for Sadowsky. Have a look at their Instagram, gives you more of an idea of what they do, I would say they seem more varied than the likes of Sadowsky.

Edited February 17, 2023 by chrisgriff

[SamPlaysBass]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Looks like more Fender copies to me....

If that’s what you want. Or if you wanted something a bit less traditional I’m sure you could have a chat with Bruce and he’d be happy to design something. There’s an Explorer-esque design on his Instagram which looks interesting which I believe to be a custom design for a customer. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmok_q3K39P/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

What’s drawing me to Bassworks is the engineering solutions behind things like the neck pocket and the fret ends. Some designs are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but all are logical and solve issues I’ve seen on basses I own/have owned. 

[BigRedX]

4 hours ago, chrisgriff said:

I suppose the same could be said for Sadowsky. Have a look at their Instagram, gives you more of an idea of what they do, I would say they seem more varied than the likes of Sadowsky.

 

But Roger Sadowsky's USP is that his basses are essentially sup'ed-up Fenders. He's said as much in interviews.

 

There's nothing wrong with Fender copies if that's what you want (I don't). But I aways wonder just how many versions of basically the same thing with slight variations the market can stand and how you decide on one luthier's Fender copy over another.

[chrisgriff]

10 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

But Roger Sadowsky's USP is that his basses are essentially sup'ed-up Fenders. He's said as much in interviews.

 

There's nothing wrong with Fender copies if that's what you want (I don't). But I aways wonder just how many versions of basically the same thing with slight variations the market can stand and how you decide on one luthier's Fender copy over another.

This thread is about uk builders, I was highlighting one I’ve seen that looks interesting, that is all.

[BigRedX]

16 minutes ago, SamPlaysBass said:

If that’s what you want. Or if you wanted something a bit less traditional I’m sure you could have a chat with Bruce and he’d be happy to design something. There’s an Explorer-esque design on his Instagram which looks interesting which I believe to be a custom design for a customer. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmok_q3K39P/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

What’s drawing me to Bassworks is the engineering solutions behind things like the neck pocket and the fret ends. Some designs are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but all are logical and solve issues I’ve seen on basses I own/have owned. 

 

It's still a visual copy of someone else's design. My method of deciding who is going to build a custom instrument for me (I've had two guitars and two basses) is not to seemingly pick a luthier at random and persuade them to buy into my vision, but to go to someone who is already producing something very close to what I want and just add little tweaks to their basic design. These days there are so many luthiers all building unique instruments that there will already be someone somewhere producing something that is 90% of the way there. You'll always get a better instrument if yours has had the required number of prototypes made first rather than going for something never made before and trusting to luck.

 

AFAICS all the other features have been done elsewhere and before. The hidden fret ends is nothing new, it's always been possible if the manufacturers were prepared to take the time and effort to do it. However mass-produced instruments are built to a price point and hiding the fret ends is simply not economic if you are churning out 100s of instruments a day on a production line.

[Linus27]

I've not seen many luthier basses that I like, they all seem a little too pointy, angular, or futuristic but then again I am pretty much a traditionalist loving the Fender look and shape so a little wasted on me. However, I do love a Status bass (never owned one mind) and I absolutely adore this Shuker.

 

[Geek99]

I’ve seen the work of @Manton Customs in the flesh and that’s what I’d buy if I could justify/had the talent to buy something custom 

[LukeFRC]

15 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

What’s drawing me to Bassworks is the engineering solutions behind things like the neck pocket and the fret ends. Some designs are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but all are logical and solve issues I’ve seen on basses I own/have owned. 

I’ve had a look at his site - what’s he doing with the neck pocket? It looks fairly standard design to me- or does it dovetail slightly? 

[LukeFRC]

15 hours ago, BigRedX said:

My method of deciding who is going to build a custom instrument for me (I've had two guitars and two basses) is not to seemingly pick a luthier at random and persuade them to buy into my vision, but to go to someone who is already producing something very close to what I want and just add little tweaks to their basic design.

That would be my approach too, interestingly I think we both work as designers so there’s probably a level of our training meaning we both understand design process and also there’s a joy in seeing someone else having their own highly refined creative vision 

[Belka]

4 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

That would be my approach too, interestingly I think we both work as designers so there’s probably a level of our training meaning we both understand design process and also there’s a joy in seeing someone else having their own highly refined creative vision 

I think you're both right here. I've never really been interested in designers who say they can build anything you want. The most successful luthiers these days seem to be those whose basses have a signature sound. If I see a Wal or a Status on stage, I'm going to have a pretty good idea of what it sounds like. Basses built to cop many sounds, like the early Laklands, seem to have fallen out of favour these days. I remember back in the '90s the fact that you could get a kind of MusicMan sound, a kind of J bass sound and a kind of P bass sound out of one bass was considered a benefit, but these days, most professionals would just have a MusicMan, a J bass and  P bass to get the exact sounds. Again, the Sims quad pickups - in theory they sound like a wonderful solution, but they haven't really caught on.

 

I also have heard that Overwaters are designed to have a very full range of sounds, which you can eq to get any sound you like. I might be unpopular with some for stating this, but everytime I've seen someone playing an Overwater live, it doesn't cut well through the mix at all. I know they're considered popular with the theatre guys, but they seem to use Overwater Jazz clones rather than their custom designs.

[LukeFRC]

54 minutes ago, Belka said:

I think you're both right here. I've never really been interested in designers who say they can build anything you want. The most successful luthiers these days seem to be those whose basses have a signature sound. If I see a Wal or a Status on stage, I'm going to have a pretty good idea of what it sounds like. Basses built to cop many sounds, like the early Laklands, seem to have fallen out of favour these days. I remember back in the '90s the fact that you could get a kind of MusicMan sound, a kind of J bass sound and a kind of P bass sound out of one bass was considered a benefit, but these days, most professionals would just have a MusicMan, a J bass and  P bass to get the exact sounds. Again, the Sims quad pickups - in theory they sound like a wonderful solution, but they haven't really caught on.

 

I also have heard that Overwaters are designed to have a very full range of sounds, which you can eq to get any sound you like. I might be unpopular with some for stating this, but everytime I've seen someone playing an Overwater live, it doesn't cut well through the mix at all. I know they're considered popular with the theatre guys, but they seem to use Overwater Jazz clones rather than their custom designs.

but again that depends on the player, the situation and design objectives. If the goal was "make the greatest bass you can for a pro player who's going to be sat in the pit at shows twice a day for most the year" then the Overwater might be the greatest design ever- because unlike a Sim's thing it's not trying to do everything, just be adaptable. 
You join a metal band or something and the very design features that make the bass excel in one situation may hinder it. 

The other thing effecting our taste in thing is how we find out about stuff... some basses are like strong flavours in wine tasting - stand out from the crowd - but not actually maybe as nice a drink as the well blanced, complex flavours that didn't stand out as much. What bass forums like this do is often focus on the new strong flavour, or stand out features - at the expense of less stand out things. 

[Belka]

21 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

but again that depends on the player, the situation and design objectives. If the goal was "make the greatest bass you can for a pro player who's going to be sat in the pit at shows twice a day for most the year" then the Overwater might be the greatest design ever- because unlike a Sim's thing it's not trying to do everything, just be adaptable. 
You join a metal band or something and the very design features that make the bass excel in one situation may hinder it. 

The other thing effecting our taste in thing is how we find out about stuff... some basses are like strong flavours in wine tasting - stand out from the crowd - but not actually maybe as nice a drink as the well blanced, complex flavours that didn't stand out as much. What bass forums like this do is often focus on the new strong flavour, or stand out features - at the expense of less stand out things. 

Good points, but from my point of view, your wine analogy makes more sense when talking about playing solo. When it comes to working in a mix, almost all of the basses which sound great seem to have a certain frequency point emphasised naturally. P basses, J basses, StingRays, etc., all seem to have certain natural mid frequencies which help to push through a mix in some way, as do certain custom basses like Wals, Ken Smiths, etc. On 'full-range' sounding Swiss Army knife basses, you can replicate these sounds with a preamp, but the shelving of frequencies the preamps impart mean they never sound quite so clear/detailed.

 

I didn't mean to knock Overwater, they're beautifully made basses and I'm sure there's a good reason why so many theatre pros use them, but like I said, they tend to use the J replicas rather than the customs from what I can tell.

[bloke_zero]

On 17/02/2023 at 11:33, BigRedX said:

 

Looks like more Fender copies to me....

 

On 17/02/2023 at 16:08, SamPlaysBass said:

If that’s what you want. Or if you wanted something a bit less traditional I’m sure you could have a chat with Bruce and he’d be happy to design something. There’s an Explorer-esque design on his Instagram which looks interesting which I believe to be a custom design for a customer. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cmok_q3K39P/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

What’s drawing me to Bassworks is the engineering solutions behind things like the neck pocket and the fret ends. Some designs are evolutionary rather than revolutionary, but all are logical and solve issues I’ve seen on basses I own/have owned. 

I've not played one, but followed along some build threads. Irrespective of the body shapes it seems they are using CNC to take a step beyond recreating the Fenders of the 50's and 60's and adding some refinements that I'd have thought would substantially improve/change/modernise (pick your adjective) the sound - just tweaking the neck socket and neck body connection can have a big effect on the sound.

[detroitderek]

I’m a little late to this topic , but in reference to the comment off you want a Sadowsky tone  get a Sadowsky , but that UK basses don’t really have that approach , I’d argue that Wal, Status, and Jaydee basses all have tones that are unique , sought after, and useable in multiple music genres , at least the ones that I’ve experienced ( I currently own a 1987 Roadie active to go with my American/German/Polish made basses that keep it company ). 

[JoeEvans]

On 07/12/2022 at 10:36, BigRedX said:

 

Also most UK luthiers are small, often single person outfits and don't have anything like the overheads of Alembic or Fodera. I know Fodera bang on about how they are based in NYC when in fact they are down by the docks in Brooklyn (which is similar to saying you're based in London when the reality is that you work out of a unit on an industrial estate in Croydon), but even so I suspect that their rent/rates etc.are considerably more than than having a workshop in your back garden (Gus).

Brooklyn is one of the five boroughs of New York City. It's like saying you're based in London because you're based in Hackney.