EBS_freak Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said: I ran PA systems in several bands over a period of around 12 years, which I also hired out (with myself as engineer) to various organisations from time to time. I've never heard of this type of configuration; using upstage speakers for FOH reinforcement makes no sense to me at all (not to mention the problem of onstage noise levels that others have already referred to). Does the 'PA' guy use a surround sound system at home? Just a thought... The only time you'd use subs on stage is behind the drummer usually on a large stage in a large venue to enable the drummer to have some feel. Mostly this has been negated by using just some side fills and a buttkicker. What I read from the OP does make me question what the "band leader" knows about setting up PA. The function scene is all about low, or no, stage volume. Running a setup like this just makes zero sense. I can't see any advantage in setting up like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, solo4652 said: ...Band leader is very experienced - used to run a pro level function band in France for 10 years... Oh dear. I worked as a tech in a music shop in France for quite some years, and the stories I could tell about band leaders and their PA 'savvy' would fill a decent volume (yes, Danny Desaunay, this includes you..!). It's no guarantee of savoir faire; in fact quite the opposite, in my experience. Run for the hills..! I've used rear PA (alone...) before, but at extremely modest levels, just as a bit of monitoring, really. Sidefill can be very useful, but only on larger stages, and tightly controlled. No, the bloke's just deluded. Call in an independent sound tech to oversee and recommend improvements, is my advice (but I doubt this bloke will listen to such; again going by my past experience of band leaders in general, and French ones even more so..!) Edited April 3, 2018 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 Our band leader is English, recently returned from living in France for 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) @EBS_freak Side fills would be the way I would go if necessary, but in a pub/function setting I can see no justification for the stated setup at all. The query about domestic surround sound was actually a serious one. The layout looks suspiciously familiar (apart from the stage front speakers facing the 'wrong' way of course), don't you think? Edited April 3, 2018 by leftybassman392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 Slightly edited response from band leader just now: "What we are doing is using the rear PA to be electronic drum amp, acoustic guitar amp ,electric guitar amp ,keyboard amp for (the guitar) synth ,keyboard amp for (singer's) keyboard plus some vocal bleed to keep us in place in a song .It`s being five amps .... effectively . The front PA is vocals and some keyboard and is linked to monitors which share the same feed and balance, as the desk does not have enough monitor sends to split any more . I don’t think the overall volume is that bad I just think you are standing with your ears about 9 inches from the top box which is dominating all you hear ." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Dean Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 We use to use a electric Kit & the drummer was also the Singer , 1 x12" Alto monitor worked fine for His vocal & drums . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 2 hours ago, solo4652 said: Slightly edited response from band leader just now: "What we are doing is using the rear PA to be electronic drum amp, acoustic guitar amp ,electric guitar amp ,keyboard amp for (the guitar) synth ,keyboard amp for (singer's) keyboard plus some vocal bleed to keep us in place in a song .It`s being five amps .... effectively . The front PA is vocals and some keyboard and is linked to monitors which share the same feed and balance, as the desk does not have enough monitor sends to split any more . I don’t think the overall volume is that bad I just think you are standing with your ears about 9 inches from the top box which is dominating all you hear ." Sounds like you're onto a loser which is a shame if it's a good band. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) - Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 5 hours ago, solo4652 said: ... France ... Well, there's your problem straight away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 4 hours ago, solo4652 said: ...living in France for 15 years. 13 minutes ago, skankdelvar said: Well, there's your problem straight away. I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: I concur. I suppose what I'm trying to say is the OP's bandleader probably picked up his PA skills from that Dan(n)y Desaunay. I've got his single, y'know; very relaxing. Not at all like the live shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzaboy Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I play in a loud rock band, cranked Marshall valve amps and the scary bit to me is you are running your LH500 at full pelt to be heard. I had one of these going through a 2 x 10 cab and never had the volume above 11 o`clock. We use backline and only the vocals and the kick drum goes through the pa. If you stay with this buffoon, you are going to damage your hearing and once it goes, it ain`t coming back. I have never heard of this kind of set up. Is it worth it, staying in this band and risking your hearing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, skankdelvar said: I suppose what I'm trying to say is the OP's bandleader probably picked up his PA skills from that Dan(n)y Desaunay. I've got his single, y'know; very relaxing. Not at all like the live shows. Time for an anecdote, I fear... Dany had been 'on the circuit' for many years, doing variety, dance-hall gigs, with his accordion repertoire, but had ambitions to modernise his band. When was this..? Well 'Message In A Bottle' was at the fore at the time, so late '79..? He'd taken on Rivière, just about the top local bassist at the time, and felt (rightly...) that he needed to 'up' his game from the Montarbo 'suitcase' PA box he'd been using all these years for something a bit... well, 'better'. He ordered from the shop I worked in a complete PA rig, about the best we'd sold up till then, consisting of a pair of Cerwin Vega 'fridge' cabs, an Altec power amp and a fully-spec'd HH console, plus a whole raft of mics, stands et al. All well and good; he took delivery and went off to play their week-end gigs with the new stuff. Come the Tuesday (weekly closure was Mondays...), there he was on the doorstep at the dot of opening, furious. 'I'm somewhat disappointed with the PA, which doesn't work ...' (Please note: this is translated and cleaned up from the original French in order to pass the profanity filters. Only the merest hint of the bile expressed remains, but the tirade was long and virulent..!). He insisted we unload the rig, set it up in our large piano workshop and check it out for functionality, as he'd had to rely on his old Montarbo, such was the poor performance of the new ensemble..!. This took all morning (the console has a lot of buttons..!), but worked flawlessly. Disgruntled, he packed it all back into his tour bus and went away. The very next week he was back, insisting that we check again, as it patently was faulty. Upon inspection, no anomaly (of course...): I suggested that, the next outing, I come along to their venue to see the rig in action, in a 'real-life' situation. Agreed, so the following week-end I turned up at their gig, ready to see what was what. I stood back and observed as they set it all up and did their sound check. It then became obvious to me what the problem was; Dany was doing to this new rig what he had always done with his Montarbo: turning every button and knob up to max. Yes, i/p gain, EQ, monitoring, fx... Even the O/P faders were maxed. Cacophony, howling, mush... Indescribable..! It took a fair bit of diplomacy to get the bandleader, certain, now, of the pitiful quality of his investment, to listen to me, then, after calming down slightly, to allow me to take over the console, set everything to its nominal mid position and start from there. In minutes, the hall was transformed, and they were able to enjoy, (for the first time ever..!) a good, solid sound system, and fill the venue with their otherwise excellent rendition of the latest hits (OK, with occasional spats of accordion for the older revellers...). The moral of the tale..? Having had his ears filled for decades with the 'Italian sound' of the over-reverbed Montarbo, his ears had taken that to be the 'reference', and any deviation meant there was something amiss. It took a while for them all to become re-adapted to a clean-sounding system. One's ears can, and do, often play tricks on us. 'Listening' is not as simple as one might believe at first. Edited April 3, 2018 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 24 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: Time for an anecdote, I fear... ... and a splendid anecdote too, with all the trimmings. That you can recall the configuration of the PA you sold him 39 years ago is testament to the capacious nature of your hippocampus. I'm partial to a bit of French-style accordion, myself, but the prospect of hearing one at full beans through an over-driven PA is frankly insupportable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 1 hour ago, skankdelvar said: ...testament to the capacious nature of your hippocampus... But what did I have for breakfast yesterday..? Gone, all gone. I played weddings and the like for many years with a splendid accordionist, as a duo. On the other hand, the ill-fated 'Catherine et son Ensemble' is one dep gig I'd prefer to forget..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I'm a touring sound engineer and also run a production company that supplies fancy-pants function band agencies with systems and engineers, and I can confirm that this is an utterly daft setup you're running. If the only reason he can manage is that you don't have enough monitor mixes on your desk, sell one of the two pairs of tops and your current desk, buy one of the raft of relatively inexpensive tablet-based digital mixers that are now available and have plenty aux outs (or a used Allen & Heath MixWizard, if you're of the strictly old-school analogue persuasion, as that'll fit in a standard 19" rack width and do six aux outs). Ten years of band-leading doesn't automatically mean he's got any idea at all about sound reinforcement. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 Well - it's a pretty consistent picture that's emerging from you guys. Thanks to everybody for your advice. I've sent most responses (carefully edited) to band leader, saying that since I don't know much about PA systems, I asked "some experienced musos" for their independent advice. We're gigging the next two weekends and band leader has said that we won't be changing the set up, but that we'll have a pow-wow after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 If you want to let me know what kit you've got, I'd be more than happy to advise on how to get the best out of it without blowing your head off on stage - running it at full tilt right behind you is definitely not the way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Sounds like the ideal setup. Get everything loud and mushy, absolutely perfect! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 18 hours ago, solo4652 said: Slightly edited response from band leader just now: "What we are doing is using the rear PA to be electronic drum amp, acoustic guitar amp ,electric guitar amp ,keyboard amp for (the guitar) synth ,keyboard amp for (singer's) keyboard plus some vocal bleed to keep us in place in a song .It`s being five amps .... effectively . The front PA is vocals and some keyboard and is linked to monitors which share the same feed and balance, as the desk does not have enough monitor sends to split any more . I don’t think the overall volume is that bad I just think you are standing with your ears about 9 inches from the top box which is dominating all you hear ." so he's removing the use of backline... but then he puts those speakers in the same place... what? why? You are going to have an uphill struggle, I think. If you want to stay in that band, be prepared to struggle, and use earplugs. It's ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, mike257 said: If you want to let me know what kit you've got, I'd be more than happy to advise on how to get the best out of it without blowing your head off on stage - running it at full tilt right behind you is definitely not the way! That's very generous Mike. Thank you. I'll choose my moment with him and put your kind offer to him in as unthreatening way I can muster. See what he says. Steve PM'd you regarding your offer. Edited April 4, 2018 by solo4652 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 12 hours ago, Dad3353 said: But what did I have for breakfast yesterday..? Gone, all gone. I played weddings and the like for many years with a splendid accordionist, as a duo. On the other hand, the ill-fated 'Catherine et son Ensemble' is one dep gig I'd prefer to forget..! Frogs legs and snails in garlic (sorry, very lazy stereotype) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 2 hours ago, yorks5stringer said: Frogs legs and snails in garlic (sorry, very lazy stereotype) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 What does he have against using two cabs and one or two subs for out front along with stage monitors? Surely having a PA at the back of the stage causes mic bleed and feedback issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 If everybody has monitors there's no need to have a PA in the back, it will only make things worse and muddy the stage sound. If it's too loud for the OP, especialy since he's using his rig to fill the room, then the backline needs to be turned down, a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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