Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 After almost a year of thinking my Ashborys were practically impossible to play in tune I have now realised that this is not the case if you don't play by 'fretting' [b]on the lines[/b], but using the dots [b]between [/b]the fretlines as the fret-point like on an unlined fretless. All lined fretlesses I recall playing were in tune when played on the lines and unlined ones were in tune on the dots. [b][i] Is this always the case or are there lined fretlesses where you also have to play between the lines?[/i][/b] I only ask as this seems really odd on the Ashbory and I think a lot of people may have formed a negative view of the Ashbory as it sounds so out of tune if you don't play between the lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 In my experience, it's usual for unlined fretlesses to have the dots where the fretlines would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted November 2, 2008 Author Share Posted November 2, 2008 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='320411' date='Nov 2 2008, 07:49 PM']In my experience, it's usual for unlined fretlesses to have the dots where the fretlines would be.[/quote] Yep - that's my experience as well I said it was a confusing post - what about where the lines are on [b]lined [/b]fretlesses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh3184 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 maybe your ashbory was defretted if its second hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 [quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='320387' date='Nov 2 2008, 07:30 PM']All lined fretlesses I recall playing were in tune when played on the lines and unlined ones were in tune on the dots.[/quote] Heaven on earth, it would get so confussing if that weren't the case. A lined fretless where you had to ignore the lines? My poor brain is starting to hurt even just at the notion of playing one of those! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 [quote name='josh3184' post='320534' date='Nov 2 2008, 10:14 PM']maybe your ashbory was defretted if its second hand?[/quote] Ahh but that would still mean you should fret on the line, as it were! Confusing indeed... I played a bass made by ESH I think which you had to play in between the lines. I actually found it more natural than playing on the lines and really liked it. In the end though I thought unlined was the way to go, with dots and lines on the side.... Cheers ped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted November 2, 2008 Author Share Posted November 2, 2008 This is the bass I have to play "between the lines". Ashborys are always fretless with thick rubber band strings, piezo bridge & 18" scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozbass Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Not sure this adds much at all...but...of the lined fretless basses I've had, the note has been on the line not between it. My current fretless (Jazz) is unlined but the dots are in the standard positions for a fretted bass. When I took it for a re-string and set-up recently, the luthier initially thought it needed a new bridge as it apparently wouldn't intonate properly - he's assumed that the dots were 'on the line'. When informed that the dots were indeed in the standard fretted (between the line) position, the bass intonated beautifully. The between the lines dotting was apparently one of many cock-ups when the bass was Masterbuilt by Fender. (Maybe a bit off topic but beware if buying a custom Masterbuilt - I wasn't the original purchaser but you may not get what you expected/spec'd. I'd think it pretty unusual for an unlined fretless to have dots in the standard fretted position.) You could try re-intonating the Ashbory - this may be the source of the problem. However, my own experience with fretless basses leads me to believe that it's better to avoid looking at the board. I try to play by listening and feeling alone and have had much greater success than when watching what I'm doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 (edited) As a general rule, if its lined then you play on the lines, if its not then you play on the dots. If in any doubt, grab an electronic tuner and play a note where you think the 5th "fret" should be. S.P. Edited November 3, 2008 by Stylon Pilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 (edited) Most lined fretless necks are off the same production line as a fretted bass so the lines are were the frets would have been. With correct intonation you will find your fingering is just behind the line. Fingers are much thicker than a fret so if you put the middle of your finger on the fret line you will be sharp. If your finger is between the fret lines you will probably be fingering flat. I find many fretless basses are set up wrong with regard to intonation and the player adapts to playing in tune by ear. When I set up one of my fretless basses I first set the scale length to exactly 2 x the distance to the 12th fret line or if not lined I put masking tape on the neck and draw the 12th fret in. To then set the intonation I use a credit card to hold the string down exactly on the mark of the imaginary 12th fret and adjust the bridge to set the set string length accordingly. If time is taken and correct string length is obtained you will find that your fingering will be consistent over the entire fretboard. One of the problems with the Ashbory is due to the very short scale. At the upper fret lines you only need to be 1-2mm out on your fingering for it to sound terribly out of tune, obviously this is less of a problem the longer the scale gets. Play through a good chorus pedal and you'll never notice.... Edited November 3, 2008 by Prosebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJA Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='320590' date='Nov 2 2008, 11:36 PM']This is the bass I have to play "between the lines". Ashborys are always fretless with thick rubber band strings, piezo bridge & 18" scale. [/quote] I think it may just be that the scale length on a an Ashbory is so short (shorter than guitars) that you have to place the centre of your fingertip between the lines to get the edge of your fingertip to press the string against the fingerboard on the line. ie. if you magnified the overall size of the ashbory up to 34" scale you'd be fretting (or fretlessing) closer to the line/on the line near the nut. I reckon it's just the relationship between the size of your fingers and the size of the fretline spaces. 18in string length is just above the octave on a 34in bass, and when playing on a lined fretless around there and higher, your fingers appear to be between the lines when the note's in tune. Edited November 3, 2008 by SJA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Depends on the make. When I ordered my fretless status I wsa given the option. Dots where the fret would be, or dots where the dot on a fretted would be - IE in the middle. In the end I went with a plain board with Dots where the frets should be. It was the right choice - it is now my main bass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 [quote name='lozbass' post='320772' date='Nov 3 2008, 11:03 AM']My current fretless (Jazz) is unlined but the dots are in the standard positions for a fretted bass. When I took it for a re-string and set-up recently, the luthier initially thought it needed a new bridge as it apparently wouldn't intonate properly - he's assumed that the dots were 'on the line'.[/quote] Aha - this is the exact opposite of what I have on my Ashbory (The current ones are made by/for fender in Korea). If I play it behind the fretline as if it was fretted its perfect. [quote name='lozbass' post='320772' date='Nov 3 2008, 11:03 AM']You could try re-intonating the Ashbory[/quote] Unfortunately there's nothing to adjust - the bridge/pickup assemble is a solid fixed unit. Thanks for the replies everyone. I think the concensus seems that [list] [*][b]Unlined fretless - play on the dots[/b] [i]Except for Lozbass's Fender CS masterbuilt[/i] [*][b]Lined fretless - play on the lines[/b] Except for Fender/DeArmond (& possibly Guild) Ashborys. [/list] So as I expected, the fingerboard layout on both of my Ashborys is different to other lined fretlesses so I can only surmise that one of the following is true [list=1] [*]The fingerboard was designed specifically to confuse new users [*]someone cocked up [*]There is a practical reason for it which I have yet to work out. [/list] Its not a problem once you know the secret though - perhaps Fender should include a manual that explains this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJA Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 JLP, have you got a 34in lined fretless you can compare the intonation with? ie. playing above the octave at the 18in string length point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 [quote name='SJA' post='320814' date='Nov 3 2008, 11:53 AM']JLP, have you got a 34in lined fretless you can compare the intonation with? ie. playing above the octave at the 18in string length point?[/quote] Nope - my fretless precision has an unlined ebony board. I now know that Ashborys are in tune if you play between the lines & horribly out of tune (a quarter tone sharp) if played on the line. It just seems weird that it was designed like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete.young Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Harmonics! Find the harmonic halfway along the string - what would be the 12th fret. Is it on the line, or in the space? Likewise the one where the 7th and 5th frets would be. Those bendy strings might have something to do with it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 [quote name='Prosebass' post='320781' date='Nov 3 2008, 11:22 AM']Most lined fretless necks are off the same production line as a fretted bass so the lines are were the frets would have been. With correct intonation you will find your fingering is just behind the line. Fingers are much thicker than a fret so if you put the middle of your finger on the fret line you will be sharp. If your finger is between the fret lines you will probably be fingering flat.[/quote] As the man says. + the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 [quote name='lozbass' post='320772' date='Nov 3 2008, 12:03 PM']The between the lines dotting was apparently one of many cock-ups when the bass was Masterbuilt by Fender. (Maybe a bit off topic but beware if buying a custom Masterbuilt - I wasn't the original purchaser but you may not get what you expected/spec'd.[/quote] I'd like to think the original purchaser requested this. Otherwise, if it had been me, it would have been straight back in the box to Fender... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozbass Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 "I'd like to think the original purchaser requested this. Otherwise, if it had been me, it would have been straight back in the box to Fender..." I don't want to get off-topic here, but absolutely right! AFAIK, the original purchaser did spec 'on the line' dots. The bass turned up with 'between the line' dots and various other cock-ups (non-correct machine heads for a '64, not drilled for ashtrays, ashtrays not present). He sent it straight back (I won't list the price here but you can imagine) - corrections were performed but there was apparently nothing that could be done (invisibly) about the dots. Also, when the bass came back across the ocean, the ashtrays had been screwed on too tightly and the ultra-thin and soft nitro finish had been slightly marked - almost unbelievable! At this point the original purchaser had seen enough and off-loaded (personally, I'd have sent it back again and insisted that Fender got it right). The dots really don't bother me - a bit of a conversation piece - I've stopped looking at the board (I finally learned after many attempts with fretless that 'looking' was where I was going wrong). I've had the bass for a while now but only recently took it in for - what is in reality - a minor finish repair. It's a lovely bass (two tone burst - a particular favourite) and plays absolutely beautifully following the Gallery (Martin's) set-up. When it returns (restored to original glory), I'll post a few pics. Back to topic - JLC - I'm pleased this anomaly/quandary appears to be sorted out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 (edited) I would recommend you play with your ears and not your eyes! Violins, Violas, Cellos and Double Basses don't have lines and manage to stay in tune! The dots are a useful guide but, without your ears, you will be out of tune. I find, after 20+ years of playing only an unlined fretless bass that my relationship with the intonation is defined by my head space as much as the dots. If I am not concentrating (i.e. listening), the intonation slips very quickly into 'eek'. The Ashbory's are a special case and it doesn't help that, if I recall correctly, the intonation changes as the strings warm up (they may have nailed that; the last time I saw an Ashbory in the flesh was in 1987)!! But, as I said, the mechanics will only get you so far; you will always need to rely on your ears to fine tune. That won't change ever. Edited November 4, 2008 by bilbo230763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozbass Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 "I would recommend you play with your ears and not your eyes!" 'Wish I'd read this many years ago - it would have saved a lot of frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='321677' date='Nov 4 2008, 11:57 AM']I would recommend you play with your ears and not your eyes![/quote] I hope I will be able to once I'm more used to it & know what I'm doing. I hadn't heard about the intonation changing as the strings warm up on an Ashbory - I haven't noticed this happening, but [b]new [/b]strings take a long time to stop stretching (several days) so they keep going flat. Once the strings are a few weeks old they settle down and should be able to keep in tune for a whole set. btw the Planet Waves SOS strobe tuner works really well on an Ashbory (at the octave dots) I went to Robin Bibi's Jam night in Sutton last night with my blue Ashbory (playing though Chris_b's lovely rig) I think my intonation wasn't too bad for my first time playing Ashbory in public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Ultimately it shouldn't matter where the dots are as others have said you play with your ears and not with your eyes. Fine also if you play pretty much one instrument exclusively. However I use 4 different fretless basses in varying amounts depending on the sound I'm after. One is lined the other 3 have dots at the 'fret' position. All hang on the strap in slightly different ways which puts the neck in a slightly different place in relation to my body. It normally takes a half a song for me to feel my way into the bass, and occasionally I get lost on the neck and the markers help me get back to the right place. I also have another fretless bass where the dots are in position they would be on a fretted bass. I certainly wouldn't take this to gig as a spare because if I did find myself out the markers are not enough of a help at a glance to get me back in. Consistency is the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I have a particularly rare 1974 Rickenbacker 4001 Fretless. It has normal dots on the fretboard but small red dots at EVERY fret-point up the side of the neck. Plays beautifully, sounds great, but it's easy to see why this particular bass is so rare ... horribly horribly confusing if you try to look at where you're playing. FWIW, on this bass you have to play just "behind the fret" to get the right note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 [quote]Most lined fretless necks are off the same production line as a fretted bass so the lines are were the frets would have been.[/quote] I'm gonna have to say that I don't go with that. True some are but I believe they're in the minority. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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