Anyone just use monitors and no back line ?

[Les]

Bit of resistance from some members of the band re in ears so that's on hold at the minute.

We have a pretty decent monitor system and would like to try getting rid of the backline and just using the monitor system.

We all have a monitor anyway so would save lugging 3 amps.

Anybody done it ?

ta

Les

[chris_b]

I guess it's like telling the guitarist what guitar he's going to play or you that you can only play this or that bass. Your sound, in your space, in your "office" and your choice. I'd want that to stay pretty constant no matter where I was playing.

I've played without back line, through fold back, in an acoustic duo, on a festival stage, with the full professional sound crew in attendance. Not sure I'd like monitors only with a drummer belting it out right next to me and no sound crew.

Also, not lugging 3 amps doesn't seem like a life changer to me.

[Maude]

Yep, I do it in one of my bands. We use the Behringer X Air system so we can individually adjust all the levels in our own monitors using a tablet. Really can't see what's not to like, my monitor is my amp with however much of everyone else in it I want. Just get a good balance and then up the volume to match the drummer.
Bass, DI pedal and a lead and I'm good to go, love it.
I've never been one of those that gets upset if I haven't got 'my sound' on stage, as long as I can hear myself I'm not worried about tone, our soundman makes sure it sounds good out front, and I trust him.

[jazzyvee]

Yes I have done it a number of times at venues that provide a bass rig that I really don't the sound. Not ideal for me really as I like to feel the bass as well as hear it.

[NancyJohnson]

We gigged in Reading about a year ago, headliners were supposed to supply backline, but didn't.

Sansamp into the desk.

Disaster.

Edited April 2, 2017 by NancyJohnson

[Lozz196]

I`ve done it a couple of times, it`s ok providing the monitor mix is decent, and you`re well rehearsed - the latter in case the former isn`t up to much.

[Kevin Dean]

I've been experimenting with this for a while with a 3K PA powered subs etc It's OK for back up but I can't get the the sound I like , It's OK with a bigger Pa & much more powerful monitors , but for pub / small club stuff for me It's using the amp & cab & DI into the PA for best results .

[mike257]

I do it frequently now - function gigs, three piece up to ten piece. I don't really feel the need to be thundering on stage, so long as I can hear enough to know I'm playing the right (ish) notes. More often than not I'm providing PA and on engineering duties, but even when I'm not I'm quite happy to forgo backline if I can get within hearing distance of a wedge.

If I'm carrying all that PA, I can't be bothered carrying a bloody bass rig too!

[Les]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1491167256' post='3271015']
I`ve done it a couple of times, it`s ok providing the monitor mix is decent, and you`re well rehearsed - the latter in case the former isn`t up to much.
[/quote]

We are well rehearsed, the wheels are very unlikely to fall off unless someonr reall can't hear themselves.

[EBS_freak]

If you get your IEM system right, you'll wonder why they even bother selling bass rigs. The reason a lot of guys poo poo the solution is usually because their experiences have been with a poor solution.

Your sound is only as good as what you put in - so you need a good DI, good processing if you are into your fx and EQ that is for your ears and EQ that is for front of house. Most sound guys are too old school or too lazy to bother doing this. Secondly, you need good monitors - we spend shed loads of money on bass rigs but a lot of people expect peerless performance from a set of ear buds that they got free with their phone.

Cheap wireless IEM doesn't cut it. There your bass shelved and with a poor compander, everything sounds pants... that's if you aren't suffering with static and dropout.

So in short, if you aren't looking at ditching your rig, you aren't doing it right.

The same is with wedge monitors... a decent wedge monitor should easily see off a bass rig - if you put a top end bass rig and equivalent monitor against each other, then cash for cash, the monitor should wipe the floor with the bass rig. Again, it all depends upon being able to get your mix right... and of course, you have the advantages of being able to get a mix of the other members in your wedge. The crazy thing is, like most monitoring situations, there's loads of people who will be prepared to drop over 2k for a bass rig... but would only ever consider spending a couple of hundred on a wedge - and then state that their monitors are crap in comparison.

Edited April 3, 2017 by EBS_freak

[cheddatom]

I do it using a BDI21 amp sim straight to the desk and fed out through whatever monitors they have. Depending on the monitors it can be ace or awful. I'm willing to risk it because I don't have a working amp

[chris_b]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1491205731' post='3271119']
So in short, if you aren't looking at ditching your rig, you aren't doing it right.
[/quote]
I'm in several bands and do plenty of deps.

The [i]only[/i] way to make this work is to bring my own sound reinforcement. I'm doing it just right thanks.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1491210982' post='3271164']
I'm in several bands and do plenty of deps.

The [i]only[/i] way to make this work is to bring my own sound reinforcement. I'm doing it just right thanks.
[/quote]

Come back to me when you've got permanent ringing in your ears and your back has given out.

Edited April 3, 2017 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

What gets me with these threads where people declare the need for their sound etc is that chances are if the sound coming back from decent monitoring isn't good enough then the FOH probably isn't sounding how they want either, there can't be many (any?) bass amps out there with the capabilities of an aux out from a digital mixer, I'd put an RCF wedge and an xair mixer against any amp for monitoring with my money on the mixer being the best option.

[EBS_freak]

The thing is, the concept of running bass rigs without PA support is dated - but people have got used to it and not moved on. "We've been doing it since the 60s and it's never failed us" is shortsighted thinking. There has been massive advances in music tech, so why not embrace it? Just because it's not how you do it, doesn't mean you shouldn't be open to change. Anybody who says that "it's the only way" makes me raise an eyebrow - the very same condescending response is said to me when I mention inears and for them to say "it's rubbish" - and I then find out they have been using their phone earbuds.

The average set of portable PA speakers driven with a digital desk (with some now available cheaper than their analogue counterparts) is now capable of supporting a band though it - whereas historically, there was no chance. Drivers are more robust, louder and lighter - and a hell of a lot cheaper! Spend a couple of thousand on a pro monitor and you'll soon realise that your boutique bass amp is loaded with toy speakers, built to a budget to fit an ageing ideal.

And if the "But they use backline at Glastonbury is brought up" - yes they do... mostly as stage decoration. The sound that you hear on stage is going to be via IEM or a nice set of wedges.

Edited April 3, 2017 by EBS_freak

[ead]

Yup, all the time now. I go straight into a passive Radial DI (the small green one) and into the PA. I get monitoring from the on-stage monitors but seriously looking at in-ear stuff now.

The big next step is persuading the guitarist to do the same and declare the stage an amp free zone.

[Dad3353]

One shouldn't neglect the budget considerations (the expense of the new PA rigs, with either top wedges or decent IEM for the whole band is not cheap at all...), and the bands that play at venues that already have PA, but not equipped for these new technologies. I don't know how it works out in the UK now, but here in France, I've always found it to be rare that the PA is capable of rendering backline redundant, even on medium festival stages. Top-flight venues, or autonomous bands with cash available to them, I'd agree it's the way to go, but that's far from everyone, I reckon. 'Twill come, surely, but needs another decade or so, maybe..? We've already come a long way since '17 Watts', just the same; a bit more patience, perhaps..?

[skidder652003]

I've abandoned my rig when we gig the small pubs purely down to lack of space and the b*llache of lugging it in and out of vans and venues. So now I DI from my DHA preamp pedal into the PA ( xair 18, RCF tops, monitors and a Mackie sub), sounds great, loooads less hassle to set up.

Edited April 3, 2017 by skidder652003

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1491220546' post='3271276']
I've abandoned my rig when we gig the small pubs purely down to lack of space and the b*llache of lugging it in and out of vans and venues. So now I DI from my DHA preamp pedal into the PA ( xair 18, RCF tops, monitors and a Mackie sub), sounds great, loooads less hassle to set up.
[/quote]

I'd say for pubs this is the winning setup, thumbs up from me.

[LewisK1975]

Been on IEM's for some time now. At the moment, I use my TC BH250 as a DI (spectracomp is brilliant) into the Behringer X18, JBL tops, mackie subs, and I use the Ultimate ears UE900s IEM's (as recommended by Russ). Takes a bit of getting used to, and only works really well if everyone is using them.

[stingrayPete1977]

I get what dad says about budget but quite often the people that poo poo monitoring with anything other than their own amp and cabs normally have expensive cabs, an RCF 745a is £1000 but with a decent preamp to model the sound it would sound epic pointing at your face during a gig! It would have a tonal range in excess of pretty much any bass rig without losing any of the typical bass amp frequencies.

[Lo-E]

I only do it as a last resort. Most of my gigs are at bars and clubs where multiple bands play in the lineup and nobody gets a sound check. The odds of getting a really useful monitor mix in those situations are pretty slim. Actually, the odds of having separate mixes at all are pretty slim. In some venues I'm happy just to get monitors that work!

Now, I'm not especially precious about "my sound". I often use house backline and I'm usually able to dial in a perfectly useful tone and my needs as far as monitors go are not elaborate, really, so I love the CONCEPT of ditching a bass amp and just using monitors. Reality, however, dictates a need to continue to use an amp - at least in my case. Perhaps if I move on to bigger and better venues I'll be able to revisit that decision.

[EBS_freak]

Maybe get a really nice monitor and preamp - then depending upon the situation you have a kick ass bass rig or a kick ass monitor...?

[Les]

Thanks for everyones comments, it looks like it's done by a few of you successfully.

Can't see any problems with people using processingrather than amps to get their sound in this band. Gone are the days of pandering to " I need my amp to get my sound" or "I have to play at a certain volume or I can't get my sound" Those dinosaurs are quite welcome to go and join another band, the audience don't give a sh*t as long as your instrument sounds like what it's supposed to be and they can hear the vocals enough to sing along to.

We're using full range powered PA 12's as monitors so I should imagine they'll handle everything through them at a reasonable volume.

As we all sing everyone has a monitor so I would like to think we could use this method. I may try it gradually, turning my amp down a lot and feeding the bass into my mix a lot and a bit in everyone else's.

Back line is only monitoring as far as I'm concerned, the PA should do the work. If I can hear you amp out front over the PA you're too loud.

[bassjim]

This weekend just gone.......

So for once I have a gig in my hometown and all my fam and friends came. So did a lot of curious whats he up to now. Really good turn out.

Thanks to the inability of the band members who want to go IEM and IMO not really yet knowing how this stuff works properly, plus a nice high ceiling, plus a digital "its all on a tablet " desk, its a f***ing disaster.

Half an hour of " one two....one two....no i still cant hear myself.....one two FEED BACK FEED BACK...one two...no that sounds terrible...ect " 9:10 pm = Ok we just have to get on with it now, gigs got to start...

I take my rig anyway because it bloody well works. I have already told em thats what Im gonna do. Drummer is in no mood to use hot rods and although not exactly building a shed type, its a loud room so its....well you know. After two numbers in we had to stop the gig because the sound was just terrible. No one really knew what was going on. Its bloody awful. I went out to the car , got the usual mixer back in and we got it connected up really quickly ( good old thing with knobs and sliders you can touch ! ..) and turned the guitarists amp back on. Keys went back into his usual monitor. They bring this stuff along " as a back up till we know where we are at with the IEM set up" . Just as well. Singer however has no monitor at all because she is told every thing is gonna be ala Trump... just great.
Switch on the old school mixer, take the IEMs out and instantly and I mean to the second...all sounds good again. (well a lot better than it did. High ceiling, wood floor ect ect.) Thankfully a really nice and loyal crowd soaked up a lot of bad stuff and eventually its all back to normal...ish.Couldnt hear the vocals all night because no back up monitor for that. She made a lot of mistakes due to being so isolated she wasn't aware when various things were going on. Like solos. Or Intro parts after a chorus.
These are all seasoned giggers that on paper never put a foot wrong reduced to sounding like a bunch of first timers having a stab at it within a short space of time thanks to this IEM lark. They really should of known better but you know what its like...band politics...let em do it..see how it goes...

I was embarrassed, pissed off and angry all at the same time. Our gitard is the main cause of the problem. Wants to use the digital desk plus IEM mainly because we always are fed up with guitar being too loud on stage. This is his solution and we have so far put up with allowing him to try it out. Not once so far has this proved to be a good idea. Everytime the IEM come out its a problem. Yes most likely the operator rather than the kit but if these guys cant make it work what hope do I have? ...... Well thats it now. New rule in my band. The digital desk is out. IEM is ok as long as you use it in addition to not instead of. Its too risky.

Anyway so what I think I'm trying to say here is if you are going this route, be careful. Dont take it out in public till you have taken you and your band plus the sound system to a place where you can lock and load it at full band volume, in a band playing a gig configuration and test it out. And maybe use a sound man. Also make sure the peeps doing the PA fiddling know the difference between one room from another. IE: its not a set and forget thing.

All our vocalist wanted to do was just sing and hear herself and the band. Not unreasonable so why all this grief. Ok our chap obviously doesn't know what hes doing with it but if its that complicated.....

If I was biased against it before I'm even more so now. All I can say is Pre IEM = all sounds good. Post IEM = all bad.

Yep so not a happy bunny this week. Maybe in the future I will get to work with a PA/tech head who really knows their stuff and can be but persuaded but right now........."dont talk to me about IEM. I'll give you IEM...ect ect"

Think I'd rather wait for another ten years for a better solution to be invented than go through all that again

Edited April 3, 2017 by bassjim