Anyone just use monitors and no back line ?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1491229952' post='3271372']
Can't see any problems with people using processingrather than amps to get their sound in this band. Gone are the days of pandering to " I need my amp to get my sound" or "I have to play at a certain volume or I can't get my sound" Those dinosaurs are quite welcome to go and join another band, the audience don't give a sh*t as long as your instrument sounds like what it's supposed to be and they can hear the vocals enough to sing along to.

Back line is only monitoring as far as I'm concerned, the PA should do the work. If I can hear you amp out front over the PA you're too loud.
[/quote]
If they need their amp to get their sound, well, there's no excuse now with the likes of the modelling stuff getting so good. Kemper, Fractal, Helix... well... plenty of opportunity to get your sound with that sort of gear.

Re: hearing the backline over the PA - completely correct.

[Monkey Steve]

I've had the "must use the backline, that's my sound!" beaten out of me, mainly from playing a load of small-ish venues round London where bringing backline is not an easy option. Even if there is an amp on stage, what's happening out front is taken from a DI before the signal gets to the amp, so I've moved to a Tech 21 pedal and get "my sound" from that. then it's up to the venue/soundman whether they want to use the (usually cheap and tatty) amp they've provided for monitoring, or just give some bass through the PA monitors.

I'm also fairly relaxed about how much i can hear on stage - as long as I can make out what the bass is doing well enough to hear if I'm out of tune/hitting the wrong note that's all I need for a gig. I have a real bugbear about band members/other bands who spend an absolute age getting the soundman to make a series of minor tweaks so that they get the exact mix that they want...usually the guitarist. Priority for me is that the singer can hear enough to stay in tune and the drummer can hear enough to follow their queues. Once that's done I'll take whatever level of bass they can give me.

I was going to add a line about making sure i can hear enough of the guitars to follow my queues...but you can always hear the feckin' guitars, whether you want to or not.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1491230251' post='3271376']
This weekend just gone.......

So for once I have a gig in my hometown and all my fam and friends came. So did a lot of curious whats he up to now. Really good turn out.

Thanks to the inability of the band members who want to go IEM and IMO not really yet knowing how this stuff works properly, plus a nice high ceiling, plus a digital "its all on a tablet " desk, its a f***ing disaster.

Half an hour of " one two....one two....no i still cant hear myself.....one two FEED BACK FEED BACK...one two...no that sounds terrible...ect " 9:10 pm = Ok we just have to get on with it now, gigs got to start...

I take my rig anyway because it bloody well works. I have already told em thats what Im gonna do. Drummer is in no mood to use hot rods and although not exactly building a shed type, its a loud room so its....well you know. After two numbers in we had to stop the gig because the sound was just terrible. No one really knew what was going on. Its bloody awful. I went out to the car , got the usual mixer back in and we got it connected up really quickly ( good old thing with knobs and sliders you can touch ! ..) and turned the guitarists amp back on. Keys went back into his usual monitor. They bring this stuff along " as a back up till we know where we are at with the IEM set up" . Just as well. Singer however has no monitor at all because she is told every thing is gonna be ala Trump... just great.
Switch on the old school mixer, take the IEMs out and instantly and I mean to the second...all sounds good again. (well a lot better than it did. High ceiling, wood floor ect ect.) Thankfully a really nice and loyal crowd soaked up a lot of bad stuff and eventually its all back to normal...ish.Couldnt hear the vocals all night because no back up monitor for that. She made a lot of mistakes due to being so isolated she wasn't aware when various things were going on. Like solos. Or Intro parts after a chorus.
These are all seasoned giggers that on paper never put a foot wrong reduced to sounding like a bunch of first timers having a stab at it within a short space of time thanks to this IEM lark. They really should of known better but you know what its like...band politics...let em do it..see how it goes...

I was embarrassed, pissed off and angry all at the same time. Our gitard is the main cause of the problem. Wants to use the digital desk plus IEM mainly because we always are fed up with guitar being too loud on stage. This is his solution and we have so far put up with allowing him to try it out. Not once so far has this proved to be a good idea. Everytime the IEM come out its a problem. Yes most likely the operator rather than the kit but if these guys cant make it work what hope do I have? ...... Well thats it now. New rule in my band. The digital desk is out. IEM is ok as long as you use it in addition to not instead of. Its too risky.

Anyway so what I think I'm trying to say here is if you are going this route, be careful. Dont take it out in public till you have taken you and your band plus the sound system to a place where you can lock and load it at full band volume, in a band playing a gig configuration and test it out. And maybe use a sound man. Also make sure the peeps doing the PA fiddling know the difference between one room from another. IE: its not a set and forget thing.

All our vocalist wanted to do was just sing and hear herself and the band. Not unreasonable so why all this grief. Ok our chap obviously doesn't know what hes doing with it but if its that complicated.....

If I was biased against it before I'm even more so now. All I can say is Pre IEM = all sounds good. Post IEM = all bad.

Yep so not a happy bunny this week. Maybe in the future I will get to work with a PA/tech head who really knows their stuff and can be but persuaded but right now........."dont talk to me about IEM. I'll give you IEM...ect ect"

Think I'd rather wait for another ten years for a better solution to be invented than go through all that again
[/quote]
A bad workman blames his..... and all that

C'mon Jim, sounds like you are trying to run before you can walk. The main problem I read from that is that your guitarist is trying to use a digital desk before understanding what it can do.

I can imagine it now... Ooh, I've got some EQ I can draw some pretty curves... yep, I'll have some of that... my guitar generally sounds a bit muddy, so I'll pump up the treble a bit. Hmm... the vocals, always seem a bit thin... lets add some mid... I dunno... 600hz... that kinda [i]looks[/i] right... Boost, boost, boost. Ooh... compression... never had compression before... lets add a lashing of that... don't really know what it does...so I'll go with the preset... Ooh!! look at that!! FX... lets have a play there...

You can get so much more gain out of digital desk I bet you are running everything so hot any natural feedback rejection is wishful thinking.

Main faders go up... and you witness what happens. That's not the desk's fault. With great power, comes great power... and the necessity for restraint. The fact is, a digital gives you so much more... you only have to go into a studio and listen to a recording pre processing and post processing to see what a difference processing can make. An analogue desk however - doesn't give you more... but it goes give you a hell of a lot less to fiddle with and hence less chance of doing something woefully wrong.

Like any piece of equipment... you need to know how it works before you use it - especially in a situation like yours where you can look like a right d1ck.

Jim, sounds like you'd get a load of benefit of having some time with an engineer that knows what they are doing and experienced in doing some killer IEM mixes. I've posted this before (excuse any playing gaffs... this was just a bit of a jam gig at a pub...) but check out [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/page__view__findpost__p__3152580"]this link[/url] and tell me you wouldn't like to hear your gig like this in your ears. Stick with it... when you nail it, you'll never want to play without IEMs again. It's just that you seem to be having a rough time with it all - perhaps a few technical rehearsals would transform your experience.

[stingrayPete1977]

You can't just blame the digital desk, or the in ears, there are plenty of bands using a digital desk with conventional monitors and bands using in ears with old style desks, jeez how long have in ears been around? If no one in the band can work the desk that's another issue but I wouldn't write off playing in a band with a digital desk and/or in ears before finding out if someone in the band can work it.

You can only use a backline as front of house mix up to a point anyway, at some point it's going to need to go into a PA and the band will need monitors.

Edited April 3, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1491232693' post='3271416']
I've had the "must use the backline, that's my sound!" beaten out of me, mainly from playing a load of small-ish venues round London where bringing backline is not an easy option. Even if there is an amp on stage, what's happening out front is taken from a DI before the signal gets to the amp, so I've moved to a Tech 21 pedal and get "my sound" from that. then it's up to the venue/soundman whether they want to use the (usually cheap and tatty) amp they've provided for monitoring, or just give some bass through the PA monitors.

I'm also fairly relaxed about how much i can hear on stage - as long as I can make out what the bass is doing well enough to hear if I'm out of tune/hitting the wrong note that's all I need for a gig. I have a real bugbear about band members/other bands who spend an absolute age getting the soundman to make a series of minor tweaks so that they get the exact mix that they want...usually the guitarist. Priority for me is that the singer can hear enough to stay in tune and the drummer can hear enough to follow their queues. Once that's done I'll take whatever level of bass they can give me.

I was going to add a line about making sure i can hear enough of the guitars to follow my queues...but you can always hear the feckin' guitars, whether you want to or not.
[/quote]

+1

For anything multiband I'll take audible and useable over anything else.

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1491235796' post='3271449']
+1

For anything multiband I'll take audible and useable over anything else.
[/quote]

Thanks for the encouragement! For me it boils down to one key point that a lot of bands/band members forget - what you can hear on stage doesn't matter beyond hitting queues and staying in tune. So let the soundman get on with mixing it out front and stop wasting everybody's time fannying about over what it sounds like on stage

[Les]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1491236400' post='3271455']
stop wasting everybody's time fannying about over what it sounds like on stage
[/quote]

This in buckets. If you're a pub band like us and you think you're going to set the bass or guitar world on fire with "your" sound, get over yourself.

[itsmedunc]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1491230251' post='3271376']
This weekend just gone.......

So for once I have a gig in my hometown and all my fam and friends came. So did a lot of curious whats he up to now. Really good turn out.

Thanks to the inability of the band members who want to go IEM and IMO not really yet knowing how this stuff works properly, plus a nice high ceiling, plus a digital "its all on a tablet " desk, its a f***ing disaster.

Half an hour of " one two....one two....no i still cant hear myself.....one two FEED BACK FEED BACK...one two...no that sounds terrible...ect " 9:10 pm = Ok we just have to get on with it now, gigs got to start...

I take my rig anyway because it bloody well works. I have already told em thats what Im gonna do. Drummer is in no mood to use hot rods and although not exactly building a shed type, its a loud room so its....well you know. After two numbers in we had to stop the gig because the sound was just terrible. No one really knew what was going on. Its bloody awful. I went out to the car , got the usual mixer back in and we got it connected up really quickly ( good old thing with knobs and sliders you can touch ! ..) and turned the guitarists amp back on. Keys went back into his usual monitor. They bring this stuff along " as a back up till we know where we are at with the IEM set up" . Just as well. Singer however has no monitor at all because she is told every thing is gonna be ala Trump... just great.
Switch on the old school mixer, take the IEMs out and instantly and I mean to the second...all sounds good again. (well a lot better than it did. High ceiling, wood floor ect ect.) Thankfully a really nice and loyal crowd soaked up a lot of bad stuff and eventually its all back to normal...ish.Couldnt hear the vocals all night because no back up monitor for that. She made a lot of mistakes due to being so isolated she wasn't aware when various things were going on. Like solos. Or Intro parts after a chorus.
These are all seasoned giggers that on paper never put a foot wrong reduced to sounding like a bunch of first timers having a stab at it within a short space of time thanks to this IEM lark. They really should of known better but you know what its like...band politics...let em do it..see how it goes...

I was embarrassed, pissed off and angry all at the same time. Our gitard is the main cause of the problem. Wants to use the digital desk plus IEM mainly because we always are fed up with guitar being too loud on stage. This is his solution and we have so far put up with allowing him to try it out. Not once so far has this proved to be a good idea. Everytime the IEM come out its a problem. Yes most likely the operator rather than the kit but if these guys cant make it work what hope do I have? ...... Well thats it now. New rule in my band. The digital desk is out. IEM is ok as long as you use it in addition to not instead of. Its too risky.

Anyway so what I think I'm trying to say here is if you are going this route, be careful. Dont take it out in public till you have taken you and your band plus the sound system to a place where you can lock and load it at full band volume, in a band playing a gig configuration and test it out. And maybe use a sound man. Also make sure the peeps doing the PA fiddling know the difference between one room from another. IE: its not a set and forget thing.

All our vocalist wanted to do was just sing and hear herself and the band. Not unreasonable so why all this grief. Ok our chap obviously doesn't know what hes doing with it but if its that complicated.....

If I was biased against it before I'm even more so now. All I can say is Pre IEM = all sounds good. Post IEM = all bad.

Yep so not a happy bunny this week. Maybe in the future I will get to work with a PA/tech head who really knows their stuff and can be but persuaded but right now........."dont talk to me about IEM. I'll give you IEM...ect ect"

Think I'd rather wait for another ten years for a better solution to be invented than go through all that again
[/quote]


I got IEM's for myself and a digital desk for the band to use specifically because the guitarist is far too loud onstage and often our sound guy has to explain that the guitar is louder than the rig to him. In ears now block him out! Now I hear that our monitoring is, "over engineered"! There's only me with in ears!

Rehearsals are the same, we can't hear the vocals because of the guitar. Asking him to turn down does not work - because he needs to be that loud to get "his sound". The singer has to scream.

I sorted out silent rehearsals through a jamhub, an excellent Yammy electronic kit, modellers etc. We can now rehearse for free at mine. It sounds great (I bought all this gear myself by the way) and all the other members are more than happy apart from the guitarist it would seem. Now I get "I feel like a fly in a bottle"! He wants to go back to "live" rehearsals. I love conventional rehearsals but don't see the point in lugging all the gear, driving 10 miles for 2 hours to get a little more deaf each time!

Played loads of gigs being "thrown" on and had good and bad sounds but what we hear onstage is not what the audience hear. I'm beginning to think that guitarists don't understand that. I've played with a good few with the same outlook. I've seen audiences raving about how good the band was but the guitarist saying that we were sh*t based on the onstage sound?

It's cost a lot of money for me to find out that most guitarists will NOT turn down.

[ead]

We did two full technical rehearsals to set the PA up for this before taking out to pubs and clubs. We also made up some harnesses to speed up set up and take down. Well worth the investment of time.

[bassjim]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1491234608' post='3271436']
A bad workman blames his..... and all that

C'mon Jim, sounds like you are trying to run before you can walk. The main problem I read from that is that your guitarist is trying to use a digital desk before understanding what it can do.

I can imagine it now... Ooh, I've got some EQ I can draw some pretty curves... yep, I'll have some of that... my guitar generally sounds a bit muddy, so I'll pump up the treble a bit. Hmm... the vocals, always seem a bit thin... lets add some mid... I dunno... 600hz... that kinda [i]looks[/i] right... Boost, boost, boost. Ooh... compression... never had compression before... lets add a lashing of that... don't really know what it does...so I'll go with the preset... Ooh!! look at that!! FX... lets have a play there...

You can get so much more gain out of digital desk I bet you are running everything so hot any natural feedback rejection is wishful thinking.

Main faders go up... and you witness what happens. That's not the desk's fault. With great power, comes great power... and the necessity for restraint. The fact is, a digital gives you so much more... you only have to go into a studio and listen to a recording pre processing and post processing to see what a difference processing can make. An analogue desk however - doesn't give you more... but it goes give you a hell of a lot less to fiddle with and hence less chance of doing something woefully wrong.

Like any piece of equipment... you need to know how it works before you use it - especially in a situation like yours where you can look like a right d1ck.

Jim, sounds like you'd get a load of benefit of having some time with an engineer that knows what they are doing and experienced in doing some killer IEM mixes. I've posted this before (excuse any playing gaffs... this was just a bit of a jam gig at a pub...) but check out [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/page__view__findpost__p__3152580"]this link[/url] and tell me you wouldn't like to hear your gig like this in your ears. Stick with it... when you nail it, you'll never want to play without IEMs again. It's just that you seem to be having a rough time with it all - perhaps a few technical rehearsals would transform your experience.
[/quote]
Yep you got it one there Russ. All the gear and no idea. I think because in my experience with the whole thing I am at the mercy of others who I don't trust with this tech, but they also cant be told they are wrong. I tend to not get involved usually because it seams to make em happy plus usually its the "normal" desk and monitors.
Well following a big bando "lets have a talk" its out the door with it for now.

Talking of monitors......(trad type, ignoring IEM for the moment )what would you recommend as a good vocal monitor/mic combination? As in really good no cutting corners stuff. One where you can really ramp up the volume but doesn't feedback. Does such a thing exist? Or is it like getting a good bass sound, a bit of a black art? I might be thinking "if I want it done properly, I need to do it myself".

Edited April 4, 2017 by bassjim

[stingrayPete1977]

Feedback from the monitors is always going to be dictated by the desk not the actual monitors unless they are really rubbish and just happen to not produce the problem frequency.

My spare Mackie desk only has a limited EQ and it can only do either front of house OR the monitor out, the digital desk can have a 31 band eq on each of four individual monitor mixes, the certain mics we use all have a fixed problem frequency so we pull them on the actual faders where possible then each venue has its own problem frequencies, we push each Mic and monitor way beyond where it will end up then pull the individual bands out. Occasionally the mics might sound boxy but you know that without the digital desk it would be even boxier as you'll have even less EQ bands or you can have it sounding nice yet constantly feeding back, compromise that's all.

Edited April 4, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[bassjim]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1491297987' post='3271854']
Feedback from the monitors is always going to be dictated by the desk not the actual monitors unless they are really rubbish and just happen to not produce the problem frequency.

My spare Mackie desk only has a limited EQ and it can only do either front of house OR the monitor out, the digital desk can have a 31 band eq on each of four individual monitor mixes, the certain mics we use all have a fixed problem frequency so we pull them on the actual faders where possible then each venue has its own problem frequencies, we push each Mic and monitor way beyond where it will end up then pull the individual bands out. Occasionally the mics might sound boxy but you know that without the digital desk it would be even boxier as you'll have even less EQ bands or you can have it sounding nice yet constantly feeding back, compromise that's all.
[/quote] Its a black art then ....

Thanks for the advise here ,really appreciate it.
I'm trying to stay clear of the digital mixer right now but only because in the hands of the user, in my case , its just asking for trouble. At a later date when I can organise a room for a day to experiment these pointers will definitely be handy.

In the mean time I've seen a Peavey Feedback Ferret https://youtu.be/UbxQXJyNnyY which the guy implies you just "plug it in and turn it on" which is about my technical limit. Any one used one or any plus /minus points on it?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1491300014' post='3271882']
Its a black art then ....

Thanks for the advise here ,really appreciate it.
I'm trying to stay clear of the digital mixer right now but only because in the hands of the user, in my case , its just asking for trouble. At a later date when I can organise a room for a day to experiment these pointers will definitely be handy.

In the mean time I've seen a Peavey Feedback Ferret https://youtu.be/UbxQXJyNnyY which the guy implies you just "plug it in and turn it on" which is about my technical limit. Any one used one or any plus /minus points on it?
[/quote]

I have a afs2 - same sort of thing. I tend not to use it but it is pretty magical in those known problem venues. You do have to let the PA ring though when setting it up - which is not ideal at say, a wedding gig. It's pretty good with the live filters when you are playing.

The DBX stuff is good and reportedly the feedback ferret not that great. It may help you but don't expect it to be the magic wand that you may think it is. You still have to have sensible EQs to keep the feedback under control.

[stingrayPete1977]

My previous band had two rack mount feedback arresters, they ended up disconnected after finding the best arrester is someone that can ring out a room!

[EBS_freak]

I suppose the feedback destroyers really come into their own when you have a singers that like to move around a lot and randomly point their mics at speakers. Of course, for the average setup... it doesn't really help that the band are generally standing over each other either!

Just out of interest, what is the singers mic? It may be the case that the feedback rejection is not great on it - so something like a Heil PR35 which has pretty incredibly feedback rejection could be the wisest choice of upgrade.

[bassjim]

And hijack that thread......sorry original OP

For her we have a SM58 which I think is directional? It doesn't pick up noise around it, I know that much, and she also has one of those old fashioned looking silver things that wouldn't look out of place in an old world war 2 film. The latter she uses on her solo with backing tracks thing. It did see the first part of the sound check but ..see above..ect.

But we also have three other singers we rotate. A couple of them, wait for this...own their own monitor, mic and....mic stand!!!! I think the problem for us is new tech plus stupidity = cock up. This band has been going strong for about 4 years now with only the hum drum usual gitard, loud drummer , occasional sh*tty room,haven't learnt parts, and so on that we all happily deal with week in week out. The first real issue we've honestly ever had is from this new tech. New tech to us anyway.

Like the sound of this [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Heil PR35. Will singers complain its not the right colour or shape or are their other sonic arguments waiting to pounce?[/font][/color]

[Les]

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1491316374' post='3272063']
And hijack that thread......sorry original OP
[/quote]

Hijack is cool, it's all useful info.

[EBS_freak]

Shure 55SH. Ah yes.

No surprises what the SH stands for. I hate those mics with a passion. Ugh. They sound rank, they feedback at every opportunity... and I know that opinion will be divided here - but they look cack too. Bloody Elvis mic. Why anybody would still want to use one of these when technology has moved on so much is anybody's guess. I don't really like the 58 either - but at least thats known to nearly every sound engineer worldwide.

The Heil PR35 has a lovely rubberised feel to it. It's kinda like a mic wanting to be a sex toy - but has gone that step further than other mics out there. Out of all the mics that I've ever owned, that is the one that would be rolled out in hell hole venues. The only reason it's not the main mic, is that I've got a rack full of wireless EW500 945s that take precedence over the Heil. They sound great - but will still like to play with you on the feedback front.

As Pete suggested, digital desks bring a very useful toolkit with them... if you take the time to learn them. I'd suggest doing it bit by bit... for the EQ section alone. Having a 31 band EQ - especially if it has a Real Time Analyser (so it will show you the frequencies that are feeding back) is the biggest tool in preventing feedback (obviously second after mic and monitor placement). Defo stick with it - but don't try and do it all in one outing. Get to really know the desk first... then you'll get to the point where you'll wonder how we ever did without them. (If you nail it, that is!)

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1491318144' post='3272074']
As Pete suggested, digital desks bring a very useful toolkit with them... if you take the time to learn them. I'd suggest doing it bit by bit... for the EQ section alone. Having a 31 band EQ - especially if it has a Real Time Analyser (so it will show you the frequencies that are feeding back) is the biggest tool in preventing feedback (obviously second after mic and monitor placement). Defo stick with it - but don't try and do it all in one outing. Get to really know the desk first... then you'll get to the point where you'll wonder how we ever did without them. (If you nail it, that is!)
[/quote]

This is sage advice from a man who's been there and done it. I personally love the X18 now, but I have to admit it was all a bit daunting at first and I wanted to go back to our old analogue mixer. But, we persevered and it paid off in the end.

I especially like the ability to save whole mixer setups as 'scenes'. If you play the same venues a few times throughout the year, you can save the setup for that venue as a scene and call it 'dog and duck' for example, then a different scene called 'red lion' etc etc. Then recall the setup the next time you go there. Even if it's not perfect the next time, it'll be a good starting point..

[stingrayPete1977]

Those Elvis mics are a real pain, even with the digital desk they are awful, if you've managed to get that under control with a standard desk your mixing skills ain't bad, master the digital and you'll be getting the best sound you've ever had!

[Dad3353]

The only real downside of the Heil mics is their cost. Not a mic one would want beer spat into, dropping on the floor or doing a Daltrey swing. Best as a personal mic for a singer who wants good gear and will look after it. The PR35 recommended here, for instance, sells for £260 or so. A good investment, not to be wasted on just any ol' singer; avoid letting the evening's MC take it for calling the sweepstake winners.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1491325815' post='3272162']
The only real downside of the Heil mics is their cost. Not a mic one would want beer spat into, dropping on the floor or doing a Daltrey swing. Best as a personal mic for a singer who wants good gear and will look after it. The PR35 recommended here, for instance, sells for £260 or so. A good investment, not to be wasted on just any ol' singer; avoid letting the evening's MC take it for calling the sweepstake winners.
[/quote]
Bit of an odd thing to say...

You could say that just about any piece of equipment on stage... pedal boards, basses, speakers getting knocked over... having any gear on stage, if expensive is a downside? It kind of goes with the territory?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1491348221' post='3272378']
Bit of an odd thing to say...

You could say that just about any piece of equipment on stage... pedal boards, basses, speakers getting knocked over... having any gear on stage, if expensive is a downside? It kind of goes with the territory?
[/quote]

Bit of an odd thing to say, too, maybe..? Shure SM58 sells for £95 or thereabouts. Some folks buy Bentleys, others Ford Fiestas. Heil are excellent mics, but they are more expensive than the more common Shure offerings. Worth the difference..? Yes, of course, to some. Not to all, though. Just sayin'.

[stingrayPete1977]

Back to the old "why do bass players spend money on good gear, expensive guitars and amps, zildgian cymbals etc yet the singer owns no gear and uses any old P.A. and skanky mics out the Mic box even though most people say the vocals are the most important bit?".

[joeystrange]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1491236400' post='3271455']
For me it boils down to one key point that a lot of bands/band members forget - what you can hear on stage doesn't matter beyond hitting queues and staying in tune. So let the soundman get on with mixing it out front and stop wasting everybody's time fannying about over what it sounds like on stage
[/quote]

This is true and I often tell myself this. However I also enjoy playing the bass and the way my bass sounds. I gave up caring what it sounded like FOH a long time ago but I still want it to sound good to me.

That said I have played gigs with no back line and, whilst it's different, it's fine.

If we had an IEM setup then I may do this more often.