So Many Fender Bass Copies

[Hobbayne]

Some bloke was telling me the other day, that the reason there are so many copies of Precisions
and to a lesser extent Jazzes, is that Leo failed to copyright his design.
I find that a bit hard to believe seeing as, there are copies of Gibsons etc. on the market

[RhysP]

I would have thought the reason there are so many Fender bass copies is because the Jazz & Precision are the most popular basses in the world. What would be the point of copying something nobody wants?

Edited April 17, 2016 by RhysP

[Bassassin]

Fender failed to protect their trademark designs, or "trade dress", which, under US law, meant it passed into the public domain, so now anyone is free to copy those designs.

Gibson, on the other hand, took steps to protect their "open book" headstock profile (the so-called lawsuit that never actually happened!) and still retain that as a trademark.

For further reading, consult the various R*ck*nb*cker/Faker threads.

Jon.

[EssentialTension]

Surely it's a patent not a copyright and in the case of the headstock a trademark.

[sunburstjazz1967]

I think fender just realised earlier on that copies actually helped their own sales in the long run, how many people here with genuine fender basses started on a cheap copy?

[Bassassin]

The Fender headstock design (well, the basic P/Strat shape) is "borrowed" in the first place! While it's not a straight copy, it's very heavily influenced by a 1940s Bigsby design:

[wateroftyne]

Incidentally, you know why the headstock is the shape it is?

Ol' Leo wasn't daft when it came to saving a dollar or two....

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1460895368' post='3029567']
Surely it's a patent not a copyright and in the case of the headstock a trademark.


[/quote]

Isn't it "patent an item, copyright an idea"? In the bottom of Leo's drawing there he's making a claim for the design of a "bass guitar", which iirc was the unique part of it. I thought - from having seen the original Tele application drawings in books that he was claiming things like the one piece bridge, detachable/replaceable neck - and such. It's all in various Fender books but I can't be bothered looking for them.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1460894543' post='3029560']
I would have thought the reason there are so many Fender bass copies is because the Jazz & Precision are the most popular basses in the world.
[/quote]

If fender priced their bases more keenly then I would think there would be a much smaller market for copies. Still I imagine the fender marketing people have done the maths and decided they would lose more on margins they would gain in volume.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1460903671' post='3029646']
Isn't it "patent an item, copyright an idea"? In the bottom of Leo's drawing there he's making a claim for the design of a "bass guitar", which iirc was the unique part of it. I thought - from having seen the original Tele application drawings in books that he was claiming things like the one piece bridge, detachable/replaceable neck - and such. It's all in various Fender books but I can't be bothered looking for them.
[/quote]

That sounds about right to me. There are, as you say, lots of Fender patents if you google for them.

[JTUK]

A lot of the copies or clones are superior... but there you go.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1460904233' post='3029649']
If fender priced their bases more keenly ...
[/quote]

Surely, that's why there are CS, MIA, MIM, MIJ, Squiers etc.

[Grangur]

In the past I went down the line of trying to protect designs. It's harder than you might think. The copyists only have to change the design slightly and the patent is no longer able to stop you. You can make the horn longer or the body wider/narrow and you have got round the copyright.

The copyright on such this is also time limited. The main reason folk do tread carefully is not wanting the cost of a legal battle.

Anyone could open a new company tomorrow called Microsoft, making a range of small sofas and upholstery and the IT group in the USA wouldn't be able to stop you. When you register the trademark you have to do so in each and every country you want it to apply for. You also have to define the business you're going to trade in.

Btw, I'm assuming here thst Bill Gates friends haven't registered the trademark for furniture. You never know...

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1460910229' post='3029715']
..........When you register the trademark you have to do so in each and every country you want it to apply for...........[/quote]

........ and there's a few countries that will just ignore that and copy them anyway.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1460907907' post='3029683']
Surely, that's why there are CS, MIA, MIM, MIJ, Squiers etc.
[/quote]

This, precisely. The Squier range was launched to compete directly with the far cheaper but often superior quality MIJ copies in the 80s.

The company Fender contracted to do this was Kanda Shokai, owner of the Greco brand, and anecdotally the first run of JV Squiers began life as Grecos.

J.

[BigRedX]

Patents only last for 14 or 20 years in the US, as they are designed to give the originator of a new idea a competitive advantage before anyone else can copy their idea. Therefore the patents on the original Fender basses have long expired. However certain design features (like the headstock shape) can be copyrighted, but the copyright holder has to be seen to be actively enforcing this in order for it to be protected.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bassassin' timestamp='1460900278' post='3029623']
The Fender headstock design (well, the basic P/Strat shape) is "borrowed" in the first place! While it's not a straight copy, it's very heavily influenced by a 1940s Bigsby design:


[/quote]

Which in turn had been influenced by Martin, who had previously been influenced by many 19th Century German luthiers...

[luckydog]

P- and J-Bass copies are sometimes referred to as from/before 'the lawsuit years', which AFAIK was sometime in the 70s and concerned some very good guitars from Japan. Some of them go for a decent price now and by accounts play and sound very well.

Presumably the lawsuits had some basis, so some form of protection must have existed then I suppose ?

LD

Edited April 18, 2016 by luckydog

[KevB]

From what I read Fender never successfully sued any of those japanese copyists of the 80's, the whole 'lawsuit' badge is a bit of a misnomer.

[drTStingray]

The Japanese copy basses became quite popular in the 70s - I had one (an Antoria Jazz Bass copy). It was a good intrument that I had as a present - I would have preferred a Fender as that was the bass of my dreams but hey ho, this was a good second best.

The Japanese imports started to gain favour with motor cycles starting in the late 60s and then cars in the 70s, and basically gave a reliable, well built (for the time) vehicle with decent performance but more importantly came fully loaded (eg radio and everything else as standard). Your average British car didn't always meet all of these requirements and the manufacturers attitudes to 'extras' like a radio etc was you could have them, but at extra cost. This disrespect for customers resulted in considerable inroads into the market by foreign imports, especially Japanese.

They seem to have done something similar with musical instruments from the 70s on with Yamaha covering a range of different instruments. Those guitar and bass copies (which only resembled them - were not totally identical initially) were around at a time when the needs of those aspiring to a decent instrument for a lower price could not afford a Fender or Gibson.

I guess the Squiers of the 80s were a response to this but were really entry level basses.

The more recent up market guitars (Sadowski etc) seem to meet another niche which the main manufacturers may have been slow to respond to.

There was indeed a court case not too many years ago which Fender (I think) lost, but may have outlawed copies (in the 2000s sometime?).

IMHO the bottom line is the copies generally started because of an inability or reluctance for the major manufacturers to respond to what the public wanted. Now there's a shock...... Fender/Gibson etc unresponsive to customer requirements!!

Edited April 18, 2016 by drTStingray

[Grangur]

If the "customer requirements" are lower prices then, if you're building in the west, then there's only so far you can go. If a factory worker in China earns £250 a month, that's always going to present a problem to a western commercial organisation.

At this time, whatever you make in the west, you will never beat the Chinese on price until the worlds economy changes. But it is changing, slowly.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1460995570' post='3030488']
If the "customer requirements" are lower prices then, if you're building in the west, then there's only so far you can go. If a factory worker in China earns £250 a month, that's always going to present a problem to a western commercial organisation.

At this time, whatever you make in the west, you will never beat the Chinese on price until the worlds economy changes. But it is changing, slowly.
[/quote]

This is true now but doesn't explain why UK and US motor markets (and electric instrument and white goods markets) got infiltrated by Japanese manufacturers in the 60s/70s/80s. They simply produced a more consistent product which met customer expectations - all the more surprising as in the 50s and early 60s, anything with the moniker 'Made in Hong Kong' or similar was a watch word for cheap rubbish. The later Japanese stuff was anything but and even more so now, the brands have a good reputation for making well engineered stuff which is reliable and lasts (eg Toyota cars, Yamaha instruments etc etc).

Edited April 18, 2016 by drTStingray

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1460907603' post='3029681']
A lot of the copies or clones are superior... but there you go.
[/quote]

There are also a lot of 'meh' basses out there with huge price tags from the 'boutique' brands ime, any bass with 90% of the Fender dna can only be so much better than a Fender.

Edited April 18, 2016 by sunburstjazz1967

[Twincam]

To be honest I hate the fact it's a copied design most basses out there look the bloody same because of it.
And I dislike all these pseudo "custom" basses that look pretty much like a p or jazz apart from the headstock. Try coming up with something original eh!
It's fair enough pickup placement and other essential hardware bits, but having the near enough the same body shape, the same pick guard and control plate etc is so boring.
The only basses that should resemble a p bass or jazz is a Fender or Squire.

[BottomE]

Its a plus though if you like to muck around with some screwdrivers and a soldering iron and build things. So many options for replacement bits that fit the Fender model.