gadgie Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I was just wondering what the hardest 'standard' is. I'm not talking about things like HMWYRS (Dury), but the type of song that nearly every band rolls out as a standard in their set. since taking up bass, I've started watching/listening to bass players in the pub bands more. Some of the song they are playing seem quite easy. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 As everyone is at a different level of development and ability there can't be a generic "hardest". Your definition of hardest seems to revolve around technique. For me it's not what you play it's how you play it that matters. Most pub players don't flow, groove or swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTB Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1416317497' post='2608948'] since taking up bass, I've started watching/listening to bass players in the pub bands more. Some of the song they are playing seem quite easy. [/quote] Shhhh. Don't give the game away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1416317497' post='2608948'] Some of the song they are playing seem quite easy. [/quote] Because playing bass generally is in popular music! To play as a band I find Sweet Home Alabama is a trickier one for us, if the fills and some of the fiddley tiddley bits [i](techincal terms being used here)[/i] arent timed well it sounds bloody awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I would agree with chris b in that the "hard/easy" question is a relative one. It would depend on how experienced and talented the bassist is. Having said that, I'm sure the criteria for playing a given song is not whether it is easy or not, but rather what the punters want to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Making a song seem easy and sound good can be very hard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Mustang Sally, Valerie, Sex On Fire, Forget You, Feelin' Good etc etc Almost all the groove based standards sound terrible because either the drummer doesn't get it or the bassist doesn't get it. Most bassists I see tend to be quite good actually, it's mainly the drummers that tend to have not listened to the songs properly and put a completely inappropriate beat behind the song. Doomed from the start! Less is more!!!! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1416320465' post='2609005'] Mustang Sally, Valerie, Sex On Fire, Forget You, Feelin' Good etc etc ... [/quote] Just out of curiosity, as I know none of these, I gave 'em a listen each (yes, I had, in fact, heard the Nina Simon one, but...). You're saying that a lot of drummers you've heard can't get these down 'pat'..? I'm amazed. What the heck can they be doing, then..? These are basic, minimalistic numbers (except for the 'Zuton' Valerie, which is just plain duff..!). You must be right, of course, but if these aren't right, what are they doing to Sound Garden, or RATM..? [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 It depends really on the "standards" that you refer to. Are they jazz standards or the guff mentioned above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Lush Life. The OP's question is a legitimate one. Given all of the variables, it doesn't matter whether the groove is more important than the notes or the 'feel' etc. One can readily assume that when we say ' the hardest', we are looking for what is the 'hardest' tune in which to get all of these factors to work together to create an identifiable whole. The argument is like saying which building is the tallest and responding by assuming so buildings have taller storeys so will be taller whilst having less floors. It's irrelevant. For me, the simple truth is that, in strictly musical terms, if it is hard to play, it does not become a standard. In my experience, none of them are hard, They are just different and you either know them or you don't. The observation that they all look pretty easy is entirely accurate because most of them are. I once worked with a chef who, in his 30s, bought a guitar and an Oasis songbook. After one weekend working with his new toy, he came to me on the Monday morning and said 'Is that it'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think the hardest thing about playing covers is not the lines themselves, it's remembering the structures of the songs confindenlty enough to really be on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416322651' post='2609044'] Just out of curiosity, as I know none of these, I gave 'em a listen each (yes, I had, in fact, heard the Nina Simon one, but...). You're saying that a lot of drummers you've heard can't get these down 'pat'..? I'm amazed. What the heck can they be doing, then..? These are basic, minimalistic numbers (except for the 'Zuton' Valerie, which is just plain duff..!). You must be right, of course, but if these aren't right, what are they doing to Sound Garden, or RATM..? [/quote] [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1416320465' post='2609005'] it's mainly the drummers that tend to have not listened to the songs properly and put a completely inappropriate beat behind the song. Doomed from the start! Less is more!!!! [/quote] We had a drummer come in once for about 6 weeks before we asked him to leave because he did stuff like that. Drove me absolutely mad as I really like to lock it with the drummer and have good communication between each other, this guy was doing fills and adding extra bits in at the most weirdiest times and it would completely throw us all. Not to mention the pace changes after the odd chorus here and there - he kept us on our toes for sure... We started doing our best to ignore him, but when it gets to the point you're trying to ignore the drummer you have to start thinking about getting a replacement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416322651' post='2609044'] Just out of curiosity, as I know none of these, I gave 'em a listen each (yes, I had, in fact, heard the Nina Simon one, but...). You're saying that a lot of drummers you've heard can't get these down 'pat'..? I'm amazed. What the heck can they be doing, then..? These are basic, minimalistic numbers (except for the 'Zuton' Valerie, which is just plain duff..!). You must be right, of course, but if these aren't right, what are they doing to Sound Garden, or RATM..? [size=4] [/size] [/quote] Exactly. A lot of amateur drummers and bassists just dick about and think that because there's space they can mess about and try and elbow loads of fills and runs in. IMO, discipline is the quality that separates amateurs from pros. Mark Ronson's Valerie is the version I mean and can be tricky for drummers to keep the beat consistent. I'm amazed when I see bands attempt it with completely the wrong feel! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think the hardest thing about covers is making it feel right. If everyone has their version of playing by numbers a lot of bands think that because they have 'their' parts right the song is going to work and don't or can't recognise when it doesn't. The current song atm that I hear 'butchered' most times is 'Get Lucky'.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416327986' post='2609096'] The current song atm that I hear 'butchered' most times is 'Get Lucky'.. [/quote] On paper, it's a simple song. In reality, it takes a decent guitarist that knows how to play funk or disco to get that part to feel right (it doesn't have to be the same sequence, but it has to have that feel). The bassline isn't hard either, but it needs to be tight & have that disco/soul feel to the length of the notes. A previous band I had tried it. Tried a couple of times & all enjoyed playing it, but we did destroy it. The guitarists were both rock strummers & knew not who Nile Rogers was. Needles to say, that funk/electro/acid jazz band did not last long (though maybe too long). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1416327965' post='2609095']...Mark Ronson's Valerie is the version I mean...[/quote] Ah..! A world of difference. I can imagine a drummer who's been working the 'original' version being both surprised and relieved with that one. It just goes to show, however, that great liberties can be taken with 're-interpretation' of 'covers'. If the band are good, a badly-written song can get a new lease of life. Not all 'covers' have to be faithful. It does, however, require talent to get away with such liberties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) True... we had a a proggy guy try it ( Get Lucky ) and it never worked even though the leys, bass and drums were there. Got another guy in and it sounds great. You wouldn't think a gtr part could be the difference, well you would, but at one time I hated it and now I really enjoy playing it. Note to self....... pick your players OR songs very carefully as empathy is key. Notes are notes but you can't kid a groove. Edited November 18, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416331747' post='2609137'] Notes are notes but you can't kid a groove. [/quote] True dat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I suppose getting a rock player to play disco style is like trying to get a folk player to play jazz. Unless they've practiced the genre & got a feel for it, it's most likely gonna sound like the genre that they normally play in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 We play Get Lucky. It sounded very average until, after a lot of coaching and some hassle, the penny dropped with the guitarist. He didn't hear the point of the guitar part, which was strange because he's a good guitarist and that part makes the number. Get it wrong and there is no number. Everyone has limitations but I'm always disappointed when people don't fight them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Anything with Nile Rodgers on guitar will almost certainly require the guitarist to absolutely nail the groove. Get Lucky is a particularly tough one because what sounds like a single guitar part is actually two guitars overdubbed. As well as being an absolute genius Nile can be a sneaky git when he wants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notable9 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 [quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1416318483' post='2608973'] Because playing bass generally is in popular music! To play as a band I find Sweet Home Alabama is a trickier one for us, if the fills and some of the fiddley tiddley bits [i](techincal terms being used here)[/i] arent timed well it sounds bloody awful. [/quote] Could'nt agree more. It's one of those tunes which you think needs more but it absolutely does'nt. Has to be the most boring bass line ever. Great tune though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadgie Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 So I suppose anything is easy if you know how to play it. Jazz Standard: Is that the one with 2 doors and cassette instead of CD? I did mention by standard that I meant songs that bands rolled out in the pub week in week out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenYork Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I find Dakota the hardest song in the set to play because I have usually fallen asleep by the first chorus! HMWYRS - Ian Dury is currently the "hardest" song in the set playing wise for me but the hardest song for the band as a whole is Dreadlock Holiday - 10cc just because of the feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 The hardest numbers I play are with a loud, in your face blues/rock trio. The numbers are pretty straight forward and there is nothing difficult in the playing, but the energy level and intensity of the playing is the three peaks challenge compared to my usual stroll to the shops. It's not fun, but getting a pat on the back from those guys is what it's all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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