Class D amps - do the manufacturers know what they are trying to do?

[Kiwi]

I get the impression that many amp makers:

1) Just don't understand what their customers want (and how that is different to their endorsers). I'll cite the lack of dual inputs BUT the inclusion of dual preamps on some amps as an example.
2) Are in a competitive market and looking for ways to stay competitive even if the market and current amp technology doesn't offer much opportunity to innovate

I can recall a time in the 80's when bass makers were in the same boat and pretty much every feature described in the catalogues for many Japanese instruments had "Pat. Pending" or "TM" by the name regardless of whether it was actually innovative or not.

[72deluxe]

Sounds like the current phone and software industry with "patent pending"! I wonder if companies file for patents for "intellectual property" protection and some safeguard on future income? Sort of like getting an arsenal of patents together to use them in case someone else comes into the market and they feel threatened. I think the UK offers tax rebates for productions runs on products with patents on them at the moment, but I could be wrong.

I like the inclusion of dual preamps because you can blend them or switch them, but I find the dual inputs a bit puzzling. Look at the Warwick LWA1000 - two inputs but why? The demos of it on YouTube shows Ove Bosch and Andy Irvine saying what a wonderful feature it is but if you see any videos of them playing, they're only playing one bass a time, so why two inputs? I remember old Peaveys having multiple inputs but didn't see it as useful.
I would argue that dual preamps with one input path to both of them is more useful than two inputs; I have multiple basses but don't swap when gigging, unless during the break between sets.


The current amp technology doesn't offer much to innovate on, but what else is really needed? I mean equalisers and gain stages and effects sends and returns, and a different power stage. What else would they have to add? Reliability?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1392296069' post='2366874']
....1) Just don't understand what their customers want....
[/quote]

I'm not sure that I'm understanding the point of this thread. I have found that there are several manufacturers out there who understand exactly what I want out of an amp.

I've been playing outstanding amps since the 90's and they've been a mixture of valve, SS and D class. I don't care what's inside them, it's what they sound like in a band that is important to me.

[Lozz196]

Those are my impressions too Chris. Yes I`m yet to find an amp that is exactly perfect for me - Markbass add compression, drive and a tuner to your amps please - but on the whole Class Ds give volume and portability which after all, bassists have/had been moaning for years about the fact that generally lightweight amps weren`t powerful enough. I`ve had many of the Class D heads (though I understand Markbass, or some of them inc mine are Class A) and they`ve all been very good. My reason for choosing Markbass is due to how it sounds in a band setting (plus power and lightweight of course).

Edited February 13, 2014 by Lozz196

[Musky]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1392311058' post='2367188']
Those are my impressions too Chris. Yes I`m yet to find an amp that is exactly perfect for me - Markbass add compression, drive and a tuner to your amps please - but on the whole Class Ds give volume and portability which after all, bassists have/had been moaning for years about the fact that generally lightweight amps weren`t powerful enough. I`ve had many of the Class D heads (though [b]I understand Markbass, or some of them inc mine are Class A[/b]) and they`ve all been very good. My reason for choosing Markbass is due to how it sounds in a band setting (plus power and lightweight of course).
[/quote]

That's unlikely as class A amps are quite inefficient. Class A/B or Class A pre-amp maybe (all pre-amps are Class A but that doesn't stop manufacturers boasting about them )?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1392162779' post='2365626']
I would suspect that it had more to do going from a mahoosive ashdown rig to the Genz Benz/TC with barefaced cabs than with the power supply!
[/quote]
I suspect it was mainly to do with the cabs actually.

[la bam]

I think a lot of bassists are going for the all in one small powerful package. As Lozz says Markbass with a tuner would be fantastic. I had an Ashdown Superfly and loved the size, but the compression which you couldnt turn off used to drive me mad! So any additions on an amp must be turn off-able for me.

I have a set of LEM PA speakers and they have a nice addition, rather than an EQ or 3 dial (bass,mid,top) eq, it has just one dial with different pre sets on, kind of pre set eq. Im sure that would work for some amps, itd just be dial a sound in you like and soundcheck, rather than dealing with 3 dials or 10 eq sliders. Itd make it quicker to get your sound in new venues when you hardly have any time etc.

I love the old big bass gear, but for me the small powerful kit with a 2x10 is the best all round solution, as we put everything through the PA.

[mcnach]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1392322035' post='2367467']
I think a lot of bassists are going for the all in one small powerful package. As Lozz says Markbass with a tuner would be fantastic. I had an Ashdown Superfly and loved the size, but the compression which you couldnt turn off used to drive me mad! So any additions on an amp must be turn off-able for me.
[/quote]

Yes!!!

Please, a Markbass LMIII with a tuner, indeed! If compression is included, it must have the ability to be turned OFF...

[lemmywinks]

A Markbass with the Compressore, a tuner and a mute switch would get a sale from me straight away.

[Ghost_Bass]

I recently made a pause from digital amps. Having used a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0/Barefaced Midget/S12T for some time i found myself lacking of a bit of trouser flapping low-end response.

I got a Thunderfunk wich can still be fairly uncolored but still lacked some low-end (unless it was added on the parametric EQ). It sounds good but i think it sometimes lacks a bit of character (or maybe it's just not a very good match with my basses).

Now i'm currently running a Alembic F1X with a class-H 1kW poweramp though the S12T and i'm loving the sound. Big, fat, warm but retaining very musical highs. The problem is that i'm now lacking that mid definition that the class-D amp gave me and the portability (2kg of the 9.0 vs 15kg of the rack...).

I guess it's just a cyclic thing, i see myself getting another micro-amp in the future but i think i'll wait for something diferent, clean and full-range but with real world wattage and low-end extention down to (at least) 40Hz. That new Ashdown amp looks really nice...


Ok, i know, i know... pics:

[mcnach]

[quote name='lemmywinks' timestamp='1392331985' post='2367626']
A Markbass with the Compressore, a tuner and a mute switch would get a sale from me straight away.
[/quote]#


Yes, the MUTE switch... I forgot that

[Musky]

[quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1392294387' post='2366840']
The argument on the sonic variations and controls on the front of the amp surely apply to the preamp stage, and not the power amp stage of the amplifier? This means the disgust with new features on an amplifier are related to the input and preamp stages. The argument over whether it is class A, B or D would be irrelevant. The question for this thread should therefore be: "Do these amplifier designers know what they're doing with the input stages?!" (or something equivalent).

Unless I am mistaken?
[/quote]
This is an excellent point.

Perhaps it's the case that Class D is flavour of the month and the designers (or marketing department) wanted to fill the preamps with as many flavour of the month features as possible? Although there are also non-compact amps that also manage to do this.

[discreet]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1392330797' post='2367607']
Please, a Markbass LMIII with a tuner, indeed!
[/quote]

A stock LMIII and a mini headstock tuner..?

[mcnach]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1392406813' post='2368472']
A stock LMIII and a mini headstock tuner..?
[/quote]

No.
A LMIII with a tuner. And a mute button.

[discreet]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1392426528' post='2368781']
No. A LMIII with a tuner. And a mute button.
[/quote]

Well OK, but my solution is actually possible. Thhhpp! Thp! Thhpp!

[mcnach]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1392426765' post='2368784']
Well OK, but my solution is actually possible. Thhhpp! Thp! Thhpp!
[/quote]



possible shmossible... dare to imagine, man!

[discreet]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1392427381' post='2368789']
possible shmossible... dare to imagine, man!
[/quote]

I can't - I've been drinking again. [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[mcnach]

[tauzero]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1392322035' post='2367467']
I think a lot of bassists are going for the all in one small powerful package. As Lozz says Markbass with a tuner would be fantastic. I had an Ashdown Superfly and loved the size, but the compression which you couldnt turn off used to drive me mad! So any additions on an amp must be turn off-able for me.
[/quote]

It's been a while since I had one, but IIRC you could switch it off in software with the Superfly editor.

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='squeezer' timestamp='1391867897' post='2362139']
As Bill F. said you can make a good or bad amp (with a good or bad power supply) of any class. Designing good class-D amps is more difficult but can be done, the other side of this is that because it's "easy" to do "high-power" class-D amps with SMPS (small, light) lots of manufacturers cut corners and make bad ones with insufficient energy storage or power reserve, and this applies just as much to bass amps (maybe more) as PA power amps.

But some do it properly -- if you want *really* loud punchy bass but think class D amps can't deliver it, you could try connecting one of these up to your pre-amp and cabinet(s)... ;-)

[url="http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html"]http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html[/url]
[/quote]

I am on the prowl for a new amp setup, and I have considered a pre/power solution with a class D powerunit. One thing that bothers me a little, looking at those figures is... For instance:

Power output in ??? Ohm : 2x2000 Watts.

Ok... Here normal wall outlets are app. 230 Volts. Normal household fuses are app. 10 Ampere. Now that makes the maximum powerdraw from one wall outlet 230x10 = app. 230 Watts. If (Theoretically) the amp had no heat dissapation = 100% efficiency (unlikely, even for class D), and there was nothing in the amp at all consuming any power... The maximum 'real world' power the amplifier could deliver, would be 2300 Watts.

Or ???

[squeezer]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392472327' post='2369132']
I am on the prowl for a new amp setup, and I have considered a pre/power solution with a class D powerunit. One thing that bothers me a little, looking at those figures is... For instance:

Power output in ??? Ohm : 2x2000 Watts.

Ok... Here normal wall outlets are app. 230 Volts. Normal household fuses are app. 10 Ampere. Now that makes the maximum powerdraw from one wall outlet 230x10 = app. 230 Watts. If (Theoretically) the amp had no heat dissapation = 100% efficiency (unlikely, even for class D), and there was nothing in the amp at all consuming any power... The maximum 'real world' power the amplifier could deliver, would be 2300 Watts.

Or ???
[/quote]
For starters, you can draw a lot more than 3kW from a 13A mains socket In the UK) so long as you don't do it for too long. A "13A" fuse won't blow at 2x the current rating (6kW) for a minimum of 10 seconds (maximum is it will never blow), at 3x current rating (9kW) blow time is between 0.3 seconds and 2 minutes -- yes, there's a pretty big tolerance here.
http://openenergymonitor.org/emon/sites/default/files/Circuit_Protection_Characteristic_Curves.png
And most bass players don't play continuous sinewaves -- even for heavily compressed/limited bass the average power is less than a quarter of the maximum.
Put these together and you can safely use an 8kW class-D amp (playing bass guitar, not sinewaves) on a single 13A mains socket, and 6kW on a 10A socket.

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='squeezer' timestamp='1392482870' post='2369292']
For starters, you can draw a lot more than 3kW from a 13A mains socket In the UK) so long as you don't do it for too long. A "13A" fuse won't blow at 2x the current rating (6kW) for a minimum of 10 seconds (maximum is it will never blow), at 3x current rating (9kW) blow time is between 0.3 seconds and 2 minutes -- yes, there's a pretty big tolerance here.
[url="http://openenergymonitor.org/emon/sites/default/files/Circuit_Protection_Characteristic_Curves.png"]http://openenergymon...stic_Curves.png[/url]
And most bass players don't play continuous sinewaves -- even for heavily compressed/limited bass the average power is less than a quarter of the maximum.
Put these together and you can safely use an 8kW class-D amp (playing bass guitar, not sinewaves) on a single 13A mains socket, and 6kW on a 10A socket.
[/quote]

Ok, part of the explanation there I guess (for UK at least).

I realize that with 'enough' capacitators you can theoretically wrink out thousands of watts... But then we would sort of have to state the amps performane in Farad instead of watts ??.

Another thing is, that a great deal of poweramps out there are not meant for electric bass. They are meant for PA, and there you can easily have a good, heavy, even load on the amp... And ask it to pull of blasts of peak power on top !.

Personally ofcourse (for my bass rig) I can do with alot less than 2000 Watts... I am just a bit reluctant to the method of measurement used. I always found that a good RMS measurement is the best indicator, and 2x2000 Watts RMS would definately blow the fuses where I am rehearsing

[gsgbass]

I don't know what they're going for either, but I sure like the TC Electronic RH450 powering my Ampeg Heritage SVT-410HLF cab. A versatile head, and the "Tube Tone" setting that has a real tube sound.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hUR7mRT.jpg[/IMG]

Edited February 16, 2014 by gsgbass

[Telebass]

Tell me, why do folks think a mute button is useful? My floor tuner does all that is needed, keeping my LMIII nice and simple.

[Torben Hedstrøm]

Looks nice, the TC + the Ampeg !

Risking repeating myself... I am very very doubtful about the actual power (or load handling to be precise) of the present Class D amplifiers. My only experience with this concept has been in my HiFi stereo system, where I had a 2x200 Watt poweramp at one point. That one damn near burned down at a New Year's party, driving a pair of power hungry speakers.

The episode mentioned above goes years back, and I am sure that alot has happened on the Class D front since then... I am currently looking at the amp market, and very tempted to go for the Glockenklang Blue soul head. But the Class D thing does scare me off a bit... Particularly that most of the heads seemingly won't drive anything below 4 ohm (officially). This indicates to me, that even though they look powerful on paper, there could be some real world 'Ooomph' lacking somewhere. The weight of the things does appeal to me though .