4 Strings Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377893989' post='2193437'] Our gear is high risk, portable, used in anger quite often (drum stands on leads etc) and most importantly class 1 meaning that it is earthed. I too don't test delicate gear either but I do test the lead and use a multimeter to check continuity from the earth pin to the chassis on the device. Why we would argue about doing that once a year even if it cost you £2 per item I have no idea? [/quote] I didn't think anyone was arguing. What if the earth lead is taken off, or the earth lift switch put into operation to prevent hum when used with a lighting rig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 [quote name='barkin' timestamp='1377890394' post='2193394'] ...if testing shows up what could potentially be a life endangering safety issue, that's gotta be good... [/quote] Agreed - that's the main reason for it, surely..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingdownslow Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377910681' post='2193625'] What if the earth lead is taken off, [/quote] Tampering with saftey equipment? [quote] or the earth lift switch put into operation to prevent hum when used with a lighting rig? [/quote] only removes the earth from the circuitry, not the chassis/case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Why would anyone take the earth lead off? And as above ground lift is only between items like a di where it is earthed both ends and creates a loop, the earth connection from the socket to the chassis is fixed or should be hence why i just do a little test with a multi meter from the socket pin or plug pin on a combo amp for example where the lead is glanded off into the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 As for arguing against it, all the talk of it's not a legal requirement, ask to see the venues fixed wiring report to display the size of your penis and scare them into submission is what i meant rather than anyone suggesting the test itself is flawed, less of it this time as it's in repairs and technical rather than general discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377613412' post='2189389'] If something breaks or gets damaged, that needs a repair and not maintenance. If a valve goes, I'd need to replace it, but there's no maintenance I can do to make it last longer. I'd like to maintain my amp but can't think of anything to actually do! [/quote] The usual thing these days seems to be to generate as much pointless paperwork as possible. PAT Test, Certificate, log it, file it forget it. Then log the PAT Testers calibration certificates, etc etc. Not so much with PAT testing, but with most maintenance work, paperwork/Admin takes as long as the job,sometimes longer. Edited September 1, 2013 by BILL POSTERS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 [quote name='barkin' timestamp='1377888214' post='2193346'] Yup. And increasingly, it seems, hotels, social clubs, even village halls etc. [/quote] One venue we played at a bit over a year ago (Crewe Hall in Cheshire IIRC) insisted not only on PAT testing but also on PLI of £10m (not the normal £2m). Fortunately the bride and groom stumped up for the PLI. It's one of those things - if you want the gig, sometimes you have to have the PAT testing. Same as when my old social club band used to have to wear ties to play at one particular club, except that ties are cheaper than PAT testing. Well, the sort of ties I buy are anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1377892875' post='2193426'] A friend of mine does PAT testing, with anything electronic i.e. keyboards, some amps etc, he'd actually only test the lead for fear of damaging the circuits. Computers in offices only have the detachable lead tested too, for the same reason. [/quote] So he's reluctant to put (at the most) 9V DC into a mains socket on a keyboard or amp but happy to put 250V AC into it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingdownslow Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) The insulation resistance test is at 500v. Edited September 18, 2013 by goingdownslow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1379425011' post='2212509'] So he's reluctant to put (at the most) 9V DC into a mains socket on a keyboard or amp but happy to put 250V AC into it? [/quote] I'd be happy to let you see what 6 AA batteries feel like, I have a 1000v setting on mine too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 I used to work in Leeds University & the guy who I reported to did all the PAT testing for the Uni. To do it he had a certificate & I would often help him do the testing. It's a small suitcase size machine that you plug electrical items into.....it switches on.....runs the test & you get a message to say it's done. It's really not hard to do at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 [quote name='goingdownslow' timestamp='1379506848' post='2213442'] The insulation resistance test is at 500v. [/quote] Ah, that would explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 (edited) You wouldn't believe the number of potentialy lethal items of kit I've failed over the years, (many were also fire hazards). PAT testing has probably saved many lives/injuries since it's introduction. Most of us are capable of checking for the correct value fuse & should do so. Every item of electrical equipment in my home is correctly fused. A 13 amp fuse in the plug of say a bedside lamp, which should be fused at 3 amp, could lead to a fire should the flex become damaged. Carrying out a visual inspection of mains leads & casings is something most of us tend to do automatically because we look after our kit. Electrical faults cause about 50% of house fires in the UK. It's bad news when you hear of children burned to death whilst sleeping. So, I say take all sensible precautions & live long. Edited September 19, 2013 by grandad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1379589517' post='2214447'] I used to work in Leeds University & the guy who I reported to did all the PAT testing for the Uni. To do it he had a certificate & I would often help him do the testing. It's a small suitcase size machine that you plug electrical items into.....it switches on.....runs the test & you get a message to say it's done. It's really not hard to do at all. [/quote] I actually did a day's training on this ... About 15 years ago, so my competence has somewhat lapsed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njr911 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've just been asked this question by a village hall last night! Anyone know anywhere in Leeds for quick PAT testing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 There's little point arguing about all this. If any of the places you play are places of work they have to have health and safety representatives by law and these are governed by statute http://www.hse.gov.uk/involvement/whatdoesthelawsay.htm. In addition they have to be covered by public liability insurance and to get this the insurance company may impose conditions like PAT testing. It's all mainly due to fire risks, half the fires in the UK are started by electrical faults. Anyone not fulfilling these duties could potentially go to prison for anything up to life if someone is killed. I'd offer little for your chances if you had stuck a few labels off the internet onto your cables should you end up in court. Faced with criminal liability I'd ask for PAT testing, so someone else took the responsiblity. You can't blame the venues. We don't get our gear tested, I'm not being holy about this. We only do a dozen gigs a year and the cost puts us off. No-one to date has ever asked but if they did then we'd have to do it or turn down the venue. It's a bind but it isn't unreasonable or pointless any more than MOT'ing your car. Like an MOT it's no guarantee the car won't go wrong tomorrow but it's safer than never checking at all. The really bad advice is to fiddle the system or to lie. It's probably something we should all do but to cheat the system is to take all the responsibility upon yourselves, Just as you would driving a dangerous car with a fake MOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've got my stuff PAT tested courtesy of StingrayPete. In reality, I've only ever been asked twice to provide PAT certificates - once at a hotel and another at a large corporate function. The hotel wasn't interested in the stickers, they just wanted to see the certificates. They didn't even check that the certificates matched the gear. They obviously have some checklist and them having a copy of our certificates no doubt proves that they are following that - probably as mentioned before, for health and safety and insurance reasons - anything that shows that they have taken reasonable steps etc. The function however, they wanted to see the PAT certs in advance and checked the gear against the certs on stage on the perfomance night. Why so much interest? I'm not sure... maybe they have been stung. But that gig was worth a lot of money and you have to play by their rules... or you don't gig. This gig was for a very, very large events company, so you don't want to get blacklisted with them for the sake of PAT testing. To be honest, it's good piece of mind to know that everything you have got on stage has had some, even if it's minimal, checks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 a few weeks ago I started getting a very mild electric shock when my lips touched the mic, the PAT tested totally sealed, visually undamaged kettle lead was replaced on the PA amp, end of problem, not sure what this proves tbh, apart from stuff is only safe when it's tested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 [quote name='njr911' timestamp='1389257738' post='2331898'] I've just been asked this question by a village hall last night! Anyone know anywhere in Leeds for quick PAT testing ? [/quote] Factory Street Studios do a fixed-price whole band testing.. they're just next to Bradford ring road where Wakefield Rd comes up to the top. http://www.factorystreet.co.uk/contact-us/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1389263516' post='2331973'] There's little point arguing about all this. If any of the places you play are places of work they have to have health and safety representatives by law and these are governed by statute [url="http://www.hse.gov.uk/involvement/whatdoesthelawsay.htm."]http://www.hse.gov.u...sthelawsay.htm.[/url] In addition they have to be covered by public liability insurance and to get this the insurance company may impose conditions like PAT testing. It's all mainly due to fire risks, half the fires in the UK are started by electrical faults. Anyone not fulfilling these duties could potentially go to prison for anything up to life if someone is killed. I'd offer little for your chances if you had stuck a few labels off the internet onto your cables should you end up in court. Faced with criminal liability I'd ask for PAT testing, so someone else took the responsiblity. You can't blame the venues. We don't get our gear tested, I'm not being holy about this. We only do a dozen gigs a year and the cost puts us off. No-one to date has ever asked but if they did then we'd have to do it or turn down the venue. It's a bind but it isn't unreasonable or pointless any more than MOT'ing your car. Like an MOT it's no guarantee the car won't go wrong tomorrow but it's safer than never checking at all. The really bad advice is to fiddle the system or to lie. It's probably something we should all do but to cheat the system is to take all the responsibility upon yourselves, Just as you would driving a dangerous car with a fake MOT. [/quote] Great summary! We don't test our gear either, for much the same reasons, and we've never been asked for certificates. But I'd never go to the trouble of faking anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm surprised that some of my home built bits of valve gear have never been an issue with pernickety venues, but then I'm not doing functions. While I'm perfectly happy that they're earthed and fused correctly and built to good standards regarding insulation, cable strain relief etc., there is nothing official to say that. I wonder if PAT testing them might be a good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 As I understand it, PAT testing is only about rudimentary earthing and physical cable condition. It's perfectly possible for PAT testing to pass a piece of equipment that is so poorly designed that it would burst into flames within five minutes of being turned on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1389271622' post='2332133'] As I understand it, PAT testing is only about rudimentary earthing and physical cable condition. It's perfectly possible for PAT testing to pass a piece of equipment that is so poorly designed that it would burst into flames within five minutes of being turned on. [/quote] Yip. It's a bureaucratic box-ticking exercise being exploited by some to squeeze a few quid out of people who don't know any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I started playing in bands back in the days when self-preservation meant that the majority of people I played with would check their own gear, especially the occasional glance inside plugs for terminal screws coming loose (happens far more frequently than you might think!) and I still tend to do this. Another frighteningly common occurrence is the outer insulation of a mains cable no longer being held in the clamp in a plug.. usually leads to either wires pulling out of the terminals inside the plug or the inner insulation cracking leaving bare copper visible! Once or twice I've helpfully cut plugs off band cables if they've been told , told again and STILL left it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtb Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1389271890' post='2332143'] Yip. It's a bureaucratic box-ticking exercise being exploited by some to squeeze a few quid out of people who don't know any better. [/quote] This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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