PAT Testing. Why pay a certified professional?

[coffee_king]

Looking at this

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

Theres no law to say you have to even do it at all, let alone yearly.
Then if you want to, you can do it yourself.
You don't need to put stickers on plugs.
You don't need to have a certificate.

I've learned something new today

[icastle]

True, but if your client is of the type that demands to see evidence of PAT testing alongside PLI, then you won't get the gig.

You also leave yourself vulnerable to be held liable if your equipment causes damage or injury that PAT testing may have revealed possible at a venue.

[Bloodaxe]

Interesting & enlightening read, thanks for that.

Whilst there's no legal requirement to have anything PAT tested, I'd make two observations:

1: — It's not a bad idea for anything that gets a fair degree of use 'out & about' (or was bought second hand & is an unknown quantity), and having a sticker makes it easier to keep track of when it was last looked at.
2: — Regardless of what the law [i]actually[/i] says, there is a generally-held perception that annual PAT testing [u]is[/u] compulsory. Sometimes it's easier to go with the flow than overturn a widespread belief, irrespective of how erroneous that belief may be.

+1 to what icastle said too.

P.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1377595066' post='2189060']
True, but if your client is of the type that demands to see evidence of PAT testing alongside PLI, then you won't get the gig.

You also leave yourself vulnerable to be held liable if your equipment causes damage or injury that PAT testing may have revealed possible at a venue.
[/quote]

However, playing Devil's Advocate... it is a Ctach 22 situation because even if your gear is PAT tested professionally and it causes damage or injury, you have no come back on the tester nor can you hold them liable, as the 'pass' is only valid on the day that it was done. A friend does PAT testing and the company he works for are not liable for any come back if anything happens post test; the test just checks that it is OK 'then', you may well tinker or break something moments after the test hence they are not liable (and that is their get out clause).

I'm not saying it is an excuse to not PAT test (especially if you want club/corporate work) but theoretically (though bookers/organisers might not see it that way because it is all about doting the i and crossing the t), if you have the equipment and a basic instruction in PAT testing then your equipment is 'tested' whether you are qualified or not.

[icastle]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1377596862' post='2189093']
However, playing Devil's Advocate... it is a Ctach 22 situation because even if your gear is PAT tested professionally and it causes damage or injury, you have no come back on the tester nor can you hold them liable, as the 'pass' is only valid on the day that it was done. [/quote]

Again true, but in the case of injury, it does help demonstrate that you take safety seriously and have taken reasonable steps to ensure public safety.

[Myke]

I work in a charity shop and before we sell any electrical items and any items we're going to use they all have to be PAT tested. Otherwise we leave ourselves open to being sued.

Well that's what I've been told..

[6v6]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1377602908' post='2189198']
Again true, but in the case of injury, it does help demonstrate that you take safety seriously and have taken reasonable steps to ensure public safety.
[/quote]

More to the point, a condition of the venues insurance is probably that they only allow pat tested equipment to be used, so it demonstrates *they* have taken reasonable steps to avoid injury by demanding tested equipment.

The situation is pretty crazy though since the test stickers are widely available so it's easily circumvented by those who wish to do so. Note I'm not condoning this - it actually makes a lot of sense to get your kit (especially tube amps) tested for safety periodically, considering they contain very lethal voltages, and spend most of their lives getting shaken to bits by bass frequencies..

[neepheid]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1377596862' post='2189093']
However, playing Devil's Advocate... it is a Ctach 22 situation because even if your gear is PAT tested professionally and it causes damage or injury, you have no come back on the tester nor can you hold them liable, as the 'pass' is only valid on the day that it was done. A friend does PAT testing and the company he works for are not liable for any come back if anything happens post test; the test just checks that it is OK 'then', you may well tinker or break something moments after the test hence they are not liable (and that is their get out clause).

I'm not saying it is an excuse to not PAT test (especially if you want club/corporate work) but theoretically (though bookers/organisers might not see it that way because it is all about doting the i and crossing the t), if you have the equipment and a basic instruction in PAT testing then your equipment is 'tested' whether you are qualified or not.
[/quote]

Although an MoT test is compulsory, it's the same deal, the car only passed that day, the MoT test is not a substitute for routine servicing/maintenance etc.

[bassicinstinct]

IME, lots of Local Authorities, not to mention provincial theatres, insist on production of PAT Testing Certificates ( NOT just stickers all over your gear) and Public Liability Insurance Certificate before they will allow you to start your load-in.

Simple really - comply and do the gig and get paid or don't comply and don't do the gig.

[BigRedX]

The craziest thing IMO is that the test stickers are nearly always attached to the mains plugs on the IEC leads which can then be unplugged and used with some other piece of equipment.

What is the test actually testing and where should the stickers go?

[icastle]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377609563' post='2189333']
The craziest thing IMO is that the test stickers are nearly always attached to the mains plugs on the IEC leads which can then be unplugged and used with some other piece of equipment.

What is the test actually testing and where should the stickers go?
[/quote]

Removable leads [b]and[/b] the equipment should both be tested and labelled for PAT testing to be of any use.

The test itself has a number of different measurements involved, it's dependant on the item being tested.
Polarity, mechanical integrity, circuit breakers (if applicable), earth resistance and continuity are the most common.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1377606788' post='2189289']
More to the point, a condition of the venues insurance is probably that they only allow pat tested equipment to be used, so it demonstrates *they* have taken reasonable steps to avoid injury by demanding tested equipment.

The situation is pretty crazy though since the test stickers are widely available so it's easily circumvented by those who wish to do so. Note I'm not condoning this - it actually makes a lot of sense to get your kit (especially tube amps) tested for safety periodically, considering they contain very lethal voltages, and spend most of their lives getting shaken to bits by bass frequencies..
[/quote]

Not sure a PAT test, at less than £1, will really be giving too much of a check onto things like internal components such as valves. It just makes sure, at the time of testing, there are no shorts to earth, polarity is correct, any safety cutouts work and a quick visual shows no damage. If you consider your equipment and its environment to be low risk then its not needed.

I wouldn't rely on it as a proper check of your equipment.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1377608550' post='2189320']
Although an MoT test is compulsory, it's the same deal, the car only passed that day, the MoT test is not a substitute for routine servicing/maintenance etc.
[/quote]

The routine maintenance on an amp being...?

[neepheid]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377610672' post='2189345']
The routine maintenance on an amp being...?
[/quote]



Why are you being like that?

Common sense stuff - periodic check for loose connections, crackly pots or switches and clean as appropriate, damage to cables, valves properly seated (if appropriate), valve biasing (not that I know anything about that), fans clear of fluff/debris and working effectively and so on and so forth. Your amp could be PAT tested and the next day someone puts a chair leg down on your mains cable and damages the outer insulation. The parallel between the long term validity of the MoT test and the PAT test is a valid one, IMO.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377610672' post='2189345']
The routine maintenance on an amp being...?
[/quote]

At minimum, a visual check that no deterioration has occurred; that it's undamaged. A periodic check that it's still correctly earthed, and that the fuses are the correct rating wouldn't go amiss. Not much, really, if one's careful with one's gear and one is alone in using it. Not always the case for PAs, for instance...

Edited August 27, 2013 by Dad3353

[4 Strings]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1377612206' post='2189369']
Why are you being like that?

Common sense stuff - periodic check for loose connections, crackly pots or switches and clean as appropriate, damage to cables, valves properly seated (if appropriate), valve biasing (not that I know anything about that), fans clear of fluff/debris and working effectively and so on and so forth. Your amp could be PAT tested and the next day someone puts a chair leg down on your mains cable and damages the outer insulation. The parallel between the long term validity of the MoT test and the PAT test is a valid one, IMO.
[/quote]

Sorry, wasn't intending to 'be' like anything, but couldn't think of any actual maintenance compared to my car!

Crackly pots, valve biasing etc aren't safety issues and wouldn't show up in a PAT test. The visual stuff would but noticing a damaged cable I hadn't really counted as regular maintenance (I'd just use another one anyway). The fluff would be.

If something breaks or gets damaged, that needs a repair and not maintenance. If a valve goes, I'd need to replace it, but there's no maintenance I can do to make it last longer.

I'd like to maintain my amp but can't think of anything to actually do!

[neepheid]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377613412' post='2189389']
Sorry, wasn't intending to 'be' like anything, but couldn't think of any actual maintenance compared to my car!
[/quote]

Well, perhaps I should let you know that your terse response was interpreted as an attempt to make me look stupid.

[wateroftyne]

There's a lot of myths and confusion around PAT testing.

Somewhere amongst the murk lies the truth, and I suspect it heavily involves people fabricating nonsense to sustain their livelihood.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1377614116' post='2189400']
Well, perhaps I should let you know that your terse response was interpreted as an attempt to make me look stupid.
[/quote]

Apologies, not meant to be terse, certainly not meant to make anyone look stupid.

[BassBunny]

The crazy thing about the whole PAT testing scenario, (and all our gear is tested and certifcation up to date), is that having produced your certificate, if you then ask the venue for proof that their electrics are up to date, the answer will probably be "swivel".
My view is it should be a 2 way street. You show me yours, I'll show you mine.

[neepheid]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377617520' post='2189456']
Apologies, not meant to be terse, certainly not meant to make anyone look stupid.
[/quote]

I accept your apology. Now, on with the PAT testing bellyaching

[mikhay77]

Played at some venues that insisted on Pat and Pli certificates. On arrival at both recently,took in my neat folder with certs etc and both werent interested on the night! Unreal. Having said that,the pat test found 2 dodgy kettle leads and a 4 way extension. Its lip service for the venue and a feeling of safety for the band. How many bands play with no testing and not even a circuit breaker? Not slagging it,we did it for years!

[paul_5]

It depends on the gig. I've always had my kit PAT tested as a matter of course (simply because my mate's a spark, and he'll do it or me), and most venues aren't that arsed. Larger halls and holiday camps tend to be a bit more interested in it, but I've never had to show any certification to anybody. If anybody's been round counting my stickers whilst it's not being used then they've not told me.

If the worst should happen and someone gets injured because of my kit then the fact that it complies with current recommendations reduces the "contributory negligence" arguments, should it ever get to court.

[stingrayPete1977]

I hear this same stuff about pat testing on basschat all the time, most of the things I have failed items on are faults that you are responsible for and possibly easy to prove after an incident, old non shrouded plugtops being common place. As far as covering yourself and having no come back on the tester then if you can prove the test was carried out wrong then you could sue them but more importantly you have done all that is reasonably expected of you if a guest or staff member from the venue gets hurt, that's all a court will be looking for should the worst happen.

This crap about venues showing you the fixed wiring certs always comes up too, if you seriously wanted to see them most venues will have them, even our little village hall has it done every year rather than five as recommended due to their insurance and council entertainments licence. Has anyone actually asked to see them and been told they can't?, a point I made before regarding this was that the venues evening staff might not even have access to it, if you really want it I suggest emailing the venue in advance.

Edited August 27, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

Ps, There is no such thing as a certified professional in the electrical trade only a 'competent person', them having carried out a course which gained a certificate purely helps prove competency, pedant alert over