Sticky neck syndrome!

[stingrayPete1977]

Your hand and bass neck are different materials. One thing is certain, if you flat the glossy neck back with 1200 grit wet and dry then the stickyness is reduced. What yo want is a predictable grip, think of glass again and your hand grips well but then lets go altogether, that's what makes the squeek. Some glossy necks are stickier than others though and I agree that might be the finish type in some cases.

[mart]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1375025220' post='2155887']
With cars tyres - racing ones in particular - it's all about how the two surfaces interact with each other. You want the maximum contact area, but you also need the right two materials to give the grip, ....
[/quote]
With any two surfaces, friction depends on how the two surfaces interact, and the total contact area (which is affected by how they interact). Your hand behaves rather differently to tarmac, which is why car tyres aren't a very useful guide to how you want your bass neck to be.

I think, Pete, that you're right that taking some 1200 paper to a glossy neck will reduce stickiness. But doesn't it also leave it smoother, at least to the touch? I wonder if it's that the glossiness/matt-ness of the finish is due to how smooth the finish is at a microscopic level, whereas how it feels to your hand is a result of how smooth it is at a slightly coarser level. And the typical finishes on a bass neck might leave it smooth on that micro level, but rougher on the coarser level that affects how it feels. Kind of like comparing a flat road with pot-holes to the road along the North Devon cliffs after it's been freshly tarmac-ed. The latter is smooth on a micro level, but not on a coarse level, whereas the former is the other way round.

But on the other handy maybe BRX is right that it's not just the smoothness/roughness of the finish that matters, but the substances involved. It's just that that suggests to me that the finish is not inert, whereas I'm pretty sure they must be.

As you can see, I am just guessing. Except that I do know a tiny bit of the science behind friction.

[ikay]

I'm with Pete. Here's another scientific explanation on how friction is developed. Not my words but makes sense to me. The last para is analogous to skin (soft rubbery material) sliding on a gloss surface. Just another tuppence to add to the debate!

"There are essentially two components of friction that create the horizontal/lateral forces that occur in sliding.

The first is an interaction between the peaks and troughs inherent in the micro roughness and indeed macro roughness of the two sliding surfaces. These peaks are sometimes referred to as asperities. It is a form of interlocking of the surfaces which requires a particular level of force to overcome it.

The second component of friction is a molecular adhesion between the two surfaces. Whilst not a major component in very rough surfaces, it becomes the major component when the surfaces are smooth, and in particular when one surface is rubber or plastic. With a smooth surface such as glass and a very slightly damp, soft rubber (the slight dampness appears to enhance the adhesion) one can achieve far higher values of µ than can be obtained with even the roughest surfaces."

[BigRedX]

Here's the thing. I have two Gus 5-string bases, one finished in high-gloss CAR and the other in very matt black. AFAIK the same make of finish has been used for each and that the only difference is that the CAR has been polished to a high gloss, and from my perspective there is no appreciable difference in neck stickiness (or lack of it for most of the time) between the two. Therefore from my experiences the glossiness of the finish is not an issue so it must be something else. Also all of my other regularly used basses (Overwater, Sei, Pedulla and Yamaha) have high gloss finish necks. I don't experience any noticeable stickiness of the necks in anything other than the highest heat and humid conditions when the matt and satin finish necks become equally sticky.

Also all my guitars that I use most often have painted gloss-finished necks and again with not noticeable stickiness except in extreme conditions. You would have thought that the average guitarist would be far more likely to complain about a sticky neck! Therefore all I can think of is that the actual lacquer used must be the factor and maybe cheaper instruments use a lacquer that is more susceptible to stickiness when highly polished?

[uncle psychosis]

Get some really cheap and nasty soap and use it to wash your hands before the gig. Cheap soap really dries out your hands. It won't stop you sweating completely bit it may help.

[Maude]

I don't know the science behind it and I don't really care, but the fact remains that if you take a smooth piece of wood which has been lacquered to a gloss finish, push your finger into it with a reasonable pressure and then try to push your finger forwards, your finger will (not always before anyone jumps in) probably squeak and move forwards in small jerks and jumps before moving smoothly, now lightly sand the finish (not rough) and do the same with your finger, it will more likely move much more freely with no noise.
It's not the material used to finish the wood as your haven't removed the material just how it's finished.
When I got my new double bass, I had a fair bit of left hand noise resonating through the bass until I lightly sanded the neck, now no noise as I don't have to break that friction creating small sqeaks and noise.
Heard the expression 'squeaky clean'? Why does your finger squeak as you run it down a clean wet plate? Surely as it's smooth and the water acts as a lubricant there can't be any squeaks, why does your finger grip the plate and then make a noise as you break that friction? Now try and make the same 'squeaky clean' squeak with a slightly rougher surface, it won't work.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1375039587' post='2156079']
I don't know the science behind it and I don't really care...
[/quote]

Well I DO want to know the science behind it, because my experience is that the glossiness of the finish is not directly related to how sticky it feels.

More then ever from reading this I am convinced that while some finishes are less sticky than others but it isn't related to how shiny they are but what the finish is made of. The rest of it seems to me to be entirely psychological.

[Maude]

I'm not saying a gloss finish has to be a sticky finish, I have basses with gloss necks and have no trouble at all with stickiness.
But the fact remains that if you have a gloss neck that feels a bit 'grippy' then a very light sanding will more often than not make it feel less 'grippy'.
It's not psychological, the fact that my double bass has less left hand noise acoustically amplified through the instrument after sanding proves this. Just 'feeling' better after sanding could be the placebo effect but an actual difference in unwanted noise cannot be.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1375039587' post='2156079']
I don't know the science behind it and I don't really care, but the fact remains that if you take a smooth piece of wood which has been lacquered to a gloss finish, push your finger into it with a reasonable pressure and then try to push your finger forwards, your finger will (not always before anyone jumps in) probably squeak and move forwards in small jerks and jumps before moving smoothly, now lightly sand the finish (not rough) and do the same with your finger, it will more likely move much more freely with no noise.
It's not the material used to finish the wood as your haven't removed the material just how it's finished.
When I got my new double bass, I had a fair bit of left hand noise resonating through the bass until I lightly sanded the neck, now no noise as I don't have to break that friction creating small sqeaks and noise.
Heard the expression 'squeaky clean'? Why does your finger squeak as you run it down a clean wet plate? Surely as it's smooth and the water acts as a lubricant there can't be any squeaks, why does your finger grip the plate and then make a noise as you break that friction? Now try and make the same 'squeaky clean' squeak with a slightly rougher surface, it won't work.
[/quote]
This is my finding even down to the double bass, mine was the same. Engine bores are honed with a cross hatch pattern so the oil is retained to stop the piston rings burning out or in our case hand gripping the neck, maybe we should lube up before playing

[stingrayPete1977]

Light sanding with 1200 grit paper should not deter a buyer as it can be polished out again, we are talking microscopic amounts of finish.

[mickster]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1375041431' post='2156108']
Well I DO want to know the science behind it, because my experience is that the glossiness of the finish is not directly related to how sticky it feels.

More then ever from reading this I am convinced that while some finishes are less sticky than others but it isn't related to how shiny they are but what the finish is made of. The rest of it seems to me to be entirely psychological.
[/quote]

I think that because you haven't experienced this directly, then no explanation will satisfy you. A number of posters (including the OP) have all reported that they have experienced this, have given a solution (lightly sanding the neck to take the gloss down) and have even attempted to explain the physics of this (sanding reduces the surface area in contact between skin and neck). TBH the physics of it is not a great mystery - see stiction and coefficients of friction and how these are reduced with an irregular surface vs a smooth one.

Even if you haven't experienced it on a guitar neck, you must have experienced it when running a finger across a damp, smooth surface eg a glass window. The sticking-then-releasing sensation is caused by stiction and is the same phenomenon. If you ran yr finger down a non-smooth surface eg a piece of frosted glass the stiction would not occur.

Edited July 28, 2013 by mickster

[Roland Rock]

This may be talking about another friction situation, but is relevant:

http://www.schunk-group.com/uploads/media/2008-03-31_Schunk_carbon-brush_Surface_roughness.pdf


"On polished surfaces exist more contact points between the contact partners. Therefore the friction coefficient is slightly higher, the mechanical losses and the surface tempera- ture are increased.
• On smooth, polished, moving surfaces the so called „stick-slip“ effect can have much more dramatic consequences. This is a change of static friction and sliding friction. It is easy to imitate this phenomenon, by trying to slide a hand over a smooth glass surface. On moving surfaces this effect creates vibrations with high frequencies but low ampli- tudes."

Edited July 28, 2013 by Roland Rock

[Fat Rich]

I used to have a problem with gloss finishes on the neck, I'd sand them down with pretty course sandpaper and not care about resale value Pretty sure I sanded the last remaining bits of finish off the neck of my '62 Jazz

Then I improved my technique so my thumb was used less for leverage and now I'm not bothered what the finish of the neck is.

[discreet]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1375044395' post='2156166']
...I improved my technique so my thumb was used less for leverage and now I'm not bothered what the finish of the neck is.
[/quote]

Well there you go. If you have a certain technique and are prone to sticky, clammy hands you'll have a problem.
If you don't, then you won't.

[Guest]

I'm not sure about the science of it and not that bothered either really but I've had this problem with every gloss finished neck I've had.
A Sterling was the first Bass I owned with a Satin Neck and since then I've used "fine" wire wool on all my glossed necks to get a non sticky result.
It just works !

[barkin]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1375047156' post='2156206']


Well there you go. If you have a certain technique and are prone to sticky, clammy hands you'll have a problem.
If you don't, then you won't.
[/quote]

I've a certain technique, such that having my clammy hand glued to frets 1-5 isn't a problem.

What're all those other frets for anyway...?

[yepmop]

I use talc on my hands (non smelling type) before playing and that works a treat, sometimes you may have to re-apply after a hour or so but it does work.

[iconic]

Surfing doodes use this stuff to make their surfing sticks slippery...

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1375081925' post='2156362']
Surfing doodes use this stuff to make their surfing sticks slippery...
[/quote]

Quite the opposite! It's to stop them from slipping off the board

[Beer of the Bass]

I think it's not so much the total amount of friction that gets annoying but the alternate stick/slip thing you can get on some gloss necks, especially when there's some moisture being smeared around by your thumb. If a less glossy finish is slightly more grippy but consistent feeling, that could be easier to adjust to.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1375047156' post='2156206']


Well there you go. If you have a certain technique and are prone to sticky, clammy hands you'll have a problem.
If you don't, then you won't.
[/quote]

I have super-clammy hands. However, neck finish, width, profile and scale length seem to have little effect on me.
Does this mean my fretting hand technique might actually be OK?
[Worries]

[MoonBassAlpha]

The humidity was probably higher this weekend than the last few weeks.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1375081925' post='2156362']
Surfing doodes use this stuff to make their surfing sticks slippery...
[/quote]

Hahaha! FAIL.

[discreet]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1375098804' post='2156603']
The humidity was probably higher this weekend than the last few weeks.
[/quote]

It certainly makes a big difference. Our rehearsal room has been like a sauna.
Clean towels and hand washing were necessary.

Edited July 29, 2013 by discreet

[KevB]

I don't go anywhere near my ric in this type of weather, it has the stickiest finish on the back of the neck of any of the basses I own. No problem with any of the Fenders, think they are all satin finishes.