What is wrong with modern bassists?

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1329929384' post='1549941']
Where players are concerned, most bands in most generations are not producing anything new. What did Oasis offer, in musical terms, that The Damned didn't or [b]Big Country?[/b] or Jesse J. [b]DuM dum dum dum dum dum dum bass lines?[/b] with three fills per tune are not going to generate a debate.
[/quote]

Is there [i]another[/i] Big Country I haven't heard, then?
Don't really think they (or Tony Butler) deserve to be lumped in with the other 3 artist/e/s on that basis!

Edited February 23, 2012 by Lfalex v1.1

[Pete Academy]

When I posted about Blur on the Brits, I was referring to the overall performance being crap and not Alex James.

I must admit that the earlier post comparing him to Nathan East was a touch daft in my opinion. Can you see Alex with Fourplay? Nathan East is one of the best bass players in the world. Alex James is a bassist with limited experience, other than the pop band he has made a successful living with.

I'm a firm believer in that the bass part should complement the song, however simple.

[4000]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1330022593' post='1551668']
I'm 22 and I get the importance of this type of stuff. What I've increasingly noticed in younger and more 'talented' musicians are attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread, i.e. the idea that music is somehow this quantifiable thing that is to be learnt like you would maths for example. It's probably one of the downside of attending music schools (not intentionally slamming you blackmn90, just an observation), and one of the reasons I left my Uni course. There are too many people who will take the books they read and the lecturer's word as gospel. The result of this is a fairly contrived idea of what music is all about and this mad idea that music can be rubbished purely because of a perceived lack of technical or theoretical prowess. The best plan of action is to trust your own judgement on what sounds good and what doesn't, as opposed to what you think people will judge you on listening to. Unfortunately, a kind of institutionalised musical 'snobbery' prohibits this.
[/quote]

+1. Strangely my degree course in Illustration wasn't much different; at least 75% bollocks, which is why I left too.

What's that Zappa story about him opening a book on classical theory? It told him that 2 particular notes (IIRC) couldn't be played together; he played them, said "sounds fine to me" and threw the book away.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Jack Cahalane' timestamp='1330028239' post='1551783']
All the theory knowledge in the world won't help you when the Chinese take over.
[/quote]

That's were you are w[r]ong.
The Chinese love their old five note scale with the odd Heptatonic thrown in.
So when they take over, make sure you know your Pentatonic scales.

[risingson]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1330030522' post='1551851']
What's that Zappa story about him opening a book on classical theory? It told him that 2 particular notes (IIRC) couldn't be played together; he played them, said "sounds fine to me" and threw the book away.
[/quote]

Zappa clearly had his head screwed on

[paul_5]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1330043774' post='1552066']
Zappa clearly had his head screwed on
[/quote]

Amen brother!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330016791' post='1551530']
Can you sit and play one note repeating at one tempo [/quote]

yes. on evry song I is ever playign becos I is a nartist and i have a thena postr too wich is clerely more than yuo hev, yuo Nzai lulz,

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited February 24, 2012 by skankdelvar

[discreet]

Stop that at once.

[scalpy]

Isn't it just a question of how the music affects you? For instance- I can't see the appeal at all in the female cast of Hollyoaks at all but that New Girl is something else! The frequencies are in alignment! That's how I feel about music too, some types of jazz (bebop and the like that my music college peers all stroked their chins to) irritates me into another dimension yet I can listen to anything Booker T related until the cows come home. That music has resonance for me. I thought musicianship, not being a player, was about being able to generate that resonance with your listener, and we have to accept that as musicians we slowly become more articulate and able to understand the language of Wooten et al whilst the complexity of those players (musicians?) becomes impenetrable to people who are used to the immediacy of simpler yet just as effective music.

Technique doesn't equal good musicianship, nor does complexity etc. I wish I was articulate enough to sum this up in a short post, but to me that's why someone like BB King is a great musician, he can say what he needs to in 3 notes- not 30.

[AttitudeCastle]

I think i sit happily between the two extremes we have here! blackmn90 and silddx and their opposing views.

I know a reasonable amount of theory as I play Classical music and come from a classical back ground, but with bass i'm 100% self taught, I know how to apply theory to the bass but i rarely do, other than maybe using intervals to explain the structure of a line i've written to someone but that's about it.

I get a little annoyed as I play semi-technical music and it gets labelled X Y and Z by people because I write in "odd key signatures" and use "complex time signatures" and "irregular rhythms" I'm not saying it's not, but i have never composed any music systematically like that or using any of my theory knowledge as a bass, unless you count improvising in one the scales my music master requires me to know for my Trombone playing! So people TELL me my classical background is why i do "musically complex" things. But it's not! I'm no theory or musical wizz by a long long long way. Everything i write comes from mess around, expressing myself on the bass, playing rhythems and makin sounds which feel natural and come from the heart. All i do when I apply theory is try to understand that a little more, in hope to maybe understand my self a bit more.

Music is flowing long people pen hits paper, or one starts playing. It has to be from the heart, on some level, even if it's primal like what alot of clubbing music is.

Look at alot of Jazz, those guys know their theory (commonly, not saying it's a strict rule) and it's where you can see people expressing every ounce and being creative and musically free.

I read (in a fortune cookie of all places, though it was made for musicians) "In music, one must think with his heart and feel with his brain" and I think (depending what you take from that ) That sums it up pretty neatly.

There will always be a mix of playing from your heart and from your knowledge, though how prominent or aware you are of it is a different matter.

IMHO! What do I know, i'm younger than the lot of you

Though I feel my view is reasonably balanced as I have music education in one area, and none in the other and I tend to keep them seperate.

Please don't bully me now!

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1330070832' post='1552138']

Please don't bully me now!
[/quote]

Give us your dinner money...

[Conan]

Can't believe I've just read this entire thread!

Do I feel enlightened? No. Have I learned anything? No.

But it has reinforced my pre-existing knowledge that BC is a very cool place where people with very differing experiences and opinions can debate in a passionate but safe way. Jolly good show chaps!

BTW, old bassists are not better - it's just that there is so much more going on in music now that the skills of individual musicians are more part of the whole than they maybe were 30 years ago. YMMV of course!

[discreet]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' timestamp='1330070832' post='1552138']
Please don't bully me now!
[/quote]

Why do you keep hitting yourself? Why do you keep hitting yourself? *does Chinese burn and dead leg, then runs away*

[4000]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1330068564' post='1552119']
Technique doesn't equal good musicianship, nor does complexity etc. I wish I was articulate enough to sum this up in a short post, but to me that's why someone like BB King is a great musician, he can say what he needs to in 3 notes- not 30.
[/quote]

I think for me being concise doesn't really matter. 3 notes or 30, it's all valid, as long as the person has something worth saying (which is of course entirely subjective).

[Conan]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1330088512' post='1552504']
I think for me being concise doesn't really matter. 3 notes or 30, it's all valid, as long as the person has something worth saying (which is of course entirely subjective).
[/quote]

You'll be a fan of Treebeard then...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhUAg4gEgEI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhUAg4gEgEI[/url]

[TRBboy]

Wow, this has taken me the whole day to read, grabbing a few minutes where I can here and there.

I love threads like this! There's been some very interesting and varied opinions shared, and I think pretty much everyone has said something that I can agree with in some way.

Going back to the start of this thread, it strikes me that it's not really about "old" or "modern" players. Most of the names that I've seen mentioned have related to one of two groups as far as I can see:

1) Players who everyone cites as "great players", the likes of James Jamerson, Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarke, Larry Graham, Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, etc, etc, etc. I think the reason that most of these sort of players stand out is because they either created a distinctive sound/style all of their own, or because they have really pushed the boundaries of the bass world and upped the stakes from a technical perspective. I guess you could say that these people are kind of the "revolutionaries" of the bass guitar.

2) Players who are great players, no doubt about it, but who know their place within the band and do not really stand out as especially unique or revolutionary.

Personally, I think I've always drawn more inspiration from the second group. For me, there's nothing like hearing a song with a bass part that fits the song beautifully and really locks in with the drummer and nails the groove. I watch people like Victor Wooten and think "WOW!" but I can't listen for long before I get bored, and it really doesn't inspire my playing at all. When I hear people like Cass Lewis, Andrew Levy, Stuart Zender, or Matt Freeman, I really get a buzz out of it, and it does inspire my playing. I hear something and think "that's an idea/approach I could use". It's not that I scurry off and learn the song note for note, but that phrase or idea goes into the memory bank and helps to influence my playing, usually subconsciously.

I did have bass lessons when I first started out (13/14), but I was always lazy with the theory side of things, and as a result my theory knowledge isn't great at all, and I can't really sightread. Despite this I have been fortunate enough to be involved in various live and studio projects over the years as well as a bit of musical theatre. "Proper" musicians who I've worked with (including my old teacher) have told me that I'm a very intuitive player, and usually seem to play the right part. You do definitely need good technique, but this can come from just playing lots and experimentation; "learned" knowledge instead of "taught" knowledge if you like. That said, I know I could be a much better player if I had learnt all my theory and learnt to read.

I definitely agree that feel is more important than textbook knowledge, but it does need to be backed up by a certain amount of knowledge.

A few people have used blues guitarists as an example, and I think it's a good one. Blues should be boring; on paper it's predictable, repetitive and simplistic. However, the emotion and feeling than can be conveyed through blues far exceeds the sum of its parts. I love Robert Cray, most of his licks are quite simple but he has a great sound, and the dynamics and feeling that he plays with is incredible.

Please don't take it personally blackmn90, but I (perhaps naively) didn't realise that anyone actually had such a clinical approach towards music! I've always played because I really enjoy making music! It just seems a bit like indulging in conjugal activities with the missus by way of a textbook; " no, no, your ankle needs to be another 2 inches over my shoulder, you're doing it all wrong!" It just wouldn't be quite the same...........

Just my 2p worth

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='TRBboy' timestamp='1330119835' post='1553176']


Please don't take it personally blackmn90, but I (perhaps naively) didn't realise that anyone actually had such a clinical approach towards music! I've always played because I really enjoy making music! It just seems a bit like indulging in conjugal activities with the missus by way of a textbook; " no, no, your ankle needs to be another 2 inches over my shoulder, you're doing it all wrong!" It just wouldn't be quite the same...........

Just my 2p worth
[/quote]

I do still really enjoy music in what i expect a similar way to everyone else. I enjoy the feel of a hooks or riffs that stick in my head, i like the chilled feeling i get when listening to pop/ jazz ballads, and i love the hair on back moments like you get at the end of stairway to heaven when it really kicks in!

But i then analyse what is it that they have done, dynamics, articulation, tone, production, choices of notes ect. This then gives me the opportunity to create something with a similar effect consistently. I've often been a band leader and i always bring my idea of using dynamics to really change the feel of a song. Subtle changes can make a big difference and make it much more exciting for the audience.

It also means when performing, even if i have learnt 80 songs that month it is easier to remember the song 4 weeks ago because i can have a quick listen and say "ok thats A minor and i start on the 3rd and descend to the 6th and its a funk feel." Just works well for me and my terrible memory.


Sorry if i've repeated myself, but i feel this explains my approach much better

[xilddx]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330169068' post='1553617']
I do still really enjoy music in what i expect a similar way to everyone else. I enjoy the feel of a hooks or riffs that stick in my head, i like the chilled feeling i get when listening to pop/ jazz ballads, and i love the hair on back moments like you get at the end of stairway to heaven when it really kicks in!

But i then analyse what is it that they have done, dynamics, articulation, tone, production, choices of notes ect. This then gives me the opportunity to create something with a similar effect consistently. I've often been a band leader and i always bring my idea of using dynamics to really change the feel of a song. Subtle changes can make a big difference and make it much more exciting for the audience.

It also means when performing, even if i have learnt 80 songs that month it is easier to remember the song 4 weeks ago because i can have a quick listen and say "ok thats A minor and i start on the 3rd and descend to the 6th and its a funk feel." Just works well for me and my terrible memory.


Sorry if i've repeated myself, but i feel this explains my approach much better
[/quote]
The only way any of us will know if your approach works is if you post clips I reckon

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1330171782' post='1553666']
The only way any of us will know if your approach works is if you post clips I reckon
[/quote]

ok i'll try and jam something out next week

[xilddx]

[quote name='blackmn90' timestamp='1330172655' post='1553678']
ok i'll try and jam something out next week
[/quote]

Cool! Thanks man.

[Mog]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1330030463' post='1551849']


I must admit that the earlier post comparing him to Nathan East was a touch daft in my opinion. Can you see Alex with Fourplay? Nathan East is one of the best bass players in the world. Alex James is a bassist with limited experience, other than the pop band he has made a successful living with.

[/quote]

Not really Pete. I was asked for a list of names of bassists whom I considered to be remarkable. This was after labeling James and a few others as bog standard. That term was used to describe their basslines and not their technical abilities.
Unfortunately some members misunderstood my angle of approach and took exception to the phrase. (queue 2 related threads)

In that context I think that mentioning the names I did was not daft at all.

[Conan]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1330030463' post='1551849']
When I posted about Blur on the Brits, I was referring to the overall performance being crap and not Alex James.

[/quote]

Whatever his short-comings, he makes very nice cheese.

[4000]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1330094009' post='1552634']
You'll be a fan of Treebeard then...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhUAg4gEgEI[/media]
[/quote]

Hrum hom, but of course.

[4000]

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1330030463' post='1551849']
I must admit that the earlier post comparing him to Nathan East was a touch daft in my opinion. Can you see Alex with Fourplay? Nathan East is one of the best bass players in the world. Alex James is a bassist with limited experience, other than the pop band he has made a successful living with.

[/quote]

This illustrates my earlier point about the difference in viewpoints many of us have. How Nathan East can be judged, other than subjectively or in terms of having been chosen to do a lot of high profile work (which could be as much about him being a nice bloke and very professional as anything), as one of the best bass players in the world, defeats me. What does that even mean?

In terms of the comparison with Alex James, obviously it's likely he's technically better and more versatile than Alex (although who really knows?) but I at least remember some of Alex's basslines, which is more than I can say for Nathan. I'll add that I'm not a fan of either and actually can't stand Blur. I don't measure someone by their versatility, I measure someone by their uniqueness, which was my earlier point. I do however find it interesting that other people seem to see versatility as pretty much the be-all and end-all. Of course it's all just opinion at the end of the day.

Edited February 26, 2012 by 4000

[stoker]

I've always rated Tye Zamora very highly.