How Did You Train Your Drummer?

[woodyratm]

also click and get him to practice just with you on your own.

[RhysP]

How can you possibly refer to a drummer who cannot keep time as "Technically proficient"?

So he's a "lovely chap" - what do you want, a decent drummer or a friend?
You're not doing him or yourself any favours by letting him carry on - Kick him out & find somebody that can play properly.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1326297542' post='1495102']
Do you actually need more?
[/quote]
No, but imagine it coming from the guitarist

[mrdreadful]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1326299018' post='1495141']
So he's a "lovely chap" - what do you want, a decent drummer or a friend?
You're not doing him or yourself any favours by letting him carry on - Kick him out & find somebody that can play properly.
[/quote]

I imagine that would result in him being neither.

Seriously, I'd much rather be in a band with people I got on with than people who were the brilliantest at what they do.

Fact is, some people just don't have good natural timing. I know I don't. Not being able to do one thing does not entirely invalidate his proficiency as a drummer; you wouldn't call BB King a crap guitarist because he can't do rhythm. I'm with the try to help him with his timing brigade.

Edited January 11, 2012 by mrdreadful

[discreet]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1326299018' post='1495141']
You're not doing him or yourself any favours by letting him carry on - kick him out and find somebody that can play properly.
[/quote]

Not my decision, or I would. The options are: 1) I join a different band; or 2) I help him to improve.
Drummers 'that can play properly' are thin on the ground IME, though up until now I've been very lucky.

Edited January 11, 2012 by discreet

[ezbass]

[quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326299388' post='1495147']
Fact is, some people just don't have good natural timing. I know I don't. Not being able to do one thing does not entirely invalidate his proficiency as a drummer.
[/quote]Drummers 1st job = keep time, if you don't have a reasonable degree of natural timing play something else. Sorry.

[quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326299388' post='1495147']
you wouldn't call BB King a crap guitarist because he can't do rhythm. I'm with the try to help him with his timing brigade.
[/quote]BB can play rhythm, he just can't sing snd play rhythm at the same time. His cure is to get a good rhythm section including a rhythm guitarist. Having an extra rhythm drummer just seems wrong IMO

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326299388' post='1495147']
Seriously, I'd much rather be in a band with people I got on with than people who were the brilliantest at what they do.
[/quote]
It is possible to get on with people who are very good at what they do.

As for being in a band with a drummer who has a flaky concept of timekeeping because they're a friend... it's akin to persevering with a car with square wheels just because you're fond of it. If you're not bothered about getting anywhere, and are happy for people to point and laugh... knock yourself out.

[discreet]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1326297796' post='1495104']
Tama make a really cool device for live click track monitoring...
[/quote]

Thanks! Is it this one?

[discreet]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1326300396' post='1495163']
If you're not bothered about getting anywhere, and are happy for people to point and laugh... knock yourself out.
[/quote]

Actually I'm not bothered about getting anywhere... and we do get a very good response and great feedback wherever we play, no-one points and laughs... It's just that I have worked with some excellent drummers in the past and have, er... high expectations. I'm probably just pissed off because he makes me work a bit harder than I'm used to!

Edited January 11, 2012 by discreet

[jackers]

My last band had a great drummer, but we found that he really struggled on the few occasions I had to miss a practice, because he got the rhythm and feel of the song from my basslines. That didn't make him any less of a great drummer, but it just meant that I had to occasionally look over in his direction and have a few cues etc. People learn instruments in different ways, you just need to find out what is the best way for your guy

[Monckyman]

Well worth the time to see if he can improve.
If not, it won`t be your fault and you can honestly say you made the effort.

[ezbass]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1326300691' post='1495166'].. It's just that I have worked with some excellent drummers in the past and have, er... high expectations. I'm probably just pissed off because he makes me work a bit harder than I'm used to!
[/quote]I feel your pain there. I'm in 2 different bands, one with a fantastic drummer I've known for years, the other (which has had 3 different drummers) hmmm not so much (any of them, competent, but not a patch on 'Mr Clock').

[Lozz196]

I had a similar experience with a drummer, but this only happened if he didn`t have monitors. Once he could hear the vocals, he kept to the right timings, otherwise he would just speed up something rotten. I suppose hearing the words sung at the right speed gave him his cue for timing.

[shizznit]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1326300412' post='1495164']


Thanks! Is it this one?


[/quote]

Yup...that's it! Another drum manufacturer make something similar, but I have been told the Tama is the mutts nuts and pretty much the best one on the market.

[chris_b]

[size=4]Either sack him or put up with bad timing and ruined numbers. [/size]

[size=4]A friend who is a drummer who can't keep time should only be a friend. [/size]

[RhysP]

[quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326299388' post='1495147']
Seriously, I'd much rather be in a band with people I got on with than people who were the brilliantest at what they do.
[/quote]

I'm the exact opposite.

[quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326299388' post='1495147']
Fact is, some people just don't have good natural timing.
[/quote]

Then they should have the sense not to become drummers.

[quote name='mrdreadful' timestamp='1326299388' post='1495147']
you wouldn't call BB King a crap guitarist because he can't do rhythm.
[/quote]

I would actually - I think he's f***ing awful.

Edited January 11, 2012 by RhysP

[BILL POSTERS]

Dont laugh... But if you play a loud track to him, does he stamp his feet/clap or whatever in time ?? if he can, and your willing to, you should surely be able to keep him straight as long as he can hear the rest of the band.

If not, he's gorra go. Much as he likes the idea of being a drummer, if he cant do it, he cant do it.

[shizznit]

[quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1326306648' post='1495278']
Dont laugh... But if you play a loud track to him, does he stamp his feet/clap or whatever in time ?? if he can, and your willing to, you should surely be able to keep him straight as long as he can hear the rest of the band.

If not, he's gorra go. Much as he likes the idea of being a drummer, if he cant do it, he cant do it.
[/quote]

A very famous musician (I wont name drop) once said to me "You can't polish a turd". Sometimes you have to resign to the fact that some folks just don't have 'it'. People come and go in bands for lots of reasons, but you can't do their job for them.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1326290778' post='1494971']
[b]How Did You Train Your Drummer?[/b]...[/quote]

Can your 'friend's drummer not find a decent drum teacher in his region..? A decent one can do all sorts of wonders, and, if he's good, knows very well how to put someone 'on track' over this very problem. It's their job, and many are good at it. Doesn't have to be lessons for years on end; a couple of months and a bit of concentration should sort him out.
Just my tuppence worth ([i]but then again, what would I know; I'm just a drummer[/i]...)
Hope this helps...

Edited January 11, 2012 by Dad3353

[Andyjr1515]

No drummer can keep time - it's one of the great paradoxes of the natural world :-)

[Marvin]

Do the other members of your 'friends' band notice this problem? Is it a talking point? Does the singer stand in front of the drum kit in almost conductor fashion signalling the beat to the drummer, as my singer has done to a drummer? That was quite funny tbh.

I found the drummer in my now defunct band quite impossible when he started going off time - going into a roll at one speed, coming out at another, missing beats, adding beats......
As the least experienced in the band I found it, especially when playing live, a bit of a roller coaster ride. I did on occasion pull him back onto the beat. It always worried me though when he wanted a clear view of my foot tapping to the beat

There you go, a post with absolutely no advice in it whatsoever. I'm good at that



EDIT: put in a lot of missing words

Edited January 11, 2012 by Marvin

[discreet]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1326318988' post='1495533']
Do the other members of your 'friends' band notice this problem?
[/quote]

Heh. No. At least, only very occasionally.
Perhaps I'm being far too critical. Or maybe they're not being critical enough, I'm not sure which.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1326313005' post='1495416']
No drummer can keep time - it's one of the great paradoxes of the natural world :-)
[/quote]
Watch it, sonny...

[funkypenguin]

He needs to do lots and lots of practice with a metronome. I dont understand how he can be technically proficient but cant keep time :S

[jonsmith]

Over the years I've worked with drummers who really don't need any help with time keeping - this is the preferable option, but it can also highlight up timing weaknesses with others. I've also worked with drummers who were a bit sloppy in this respect, but with a bit of gentle nudging - and this can actually be done by attracting their attention while playing - have then started listening to other instruments (especially the bass), realised the need to keep an internal clock running and over time have learned to be consistent. I've also worked with drummers where I've had to try and predict what errors will arise and lock in with it (not ideal, but I got very good at this with one in particular and we fooled most of the people most of the time). The worst are drummers who don't seem to notice that they have this problem & aren't predictable in how it manifests itself. Sometimes there are other reasons why they are in the band though. I like having people I get on with in my bands, so it's worth tackling and in most cases it's not insurmountable.

Here is the advice a drummer from the first category gave me for a drummer in the last one (part of my question was is the ability just inherent or natural):


[color=#0000cd][i]Getting smooth is a combination of groovy things. But I doubt if it's truly 'natural' - like walking (which is far more complex) you have to learn it.[/i][/color]

[color=#0000cd][i]It really helps (a) if you practice - does he? - and ( if you practice with a metronome. Usually people try to do stuff as fast as they can, try and be like Neil Peart, and this is not helpful. You should always try to get the full value out of each note, and not Rush on.[/i][/color]

[color=#0000cd][i]Then there's technique: for the hands it's not so bad, since you use them more than your feet in your life, and they tend to be more in tune with your head as a result. Left or 'wrong' hand is something that needs to be worked on, as this can throw you out if it's not trained. Try playing hat or ride with the wrong hand when you practice, and this really helps.[/i][/color]

[color=#0000cd][i]But the feet, especially bass drum, are a different matter, and it's usually bad BD technique that puts drummers out - always too early, and never usually in the right place. Guess it's just TOO far away from our brains (that little thing on top of a drummer), and technique is harder to learn IMO. To make it more fun, I would suggest practising with a disco tape and playing along, four on the floor in the bass. You'll soon see how out your timing is! Hihat is something people are usually quite good at because they keep time with it when they're thinking about all the other things they're trying to do.[/i][/color]

[color=#0000cd][i]For the actual foot techniques, flat foot or heel up, your drummist will need to go on line and try to find a video. There are lots to choose from! I'm heel up, and sort of Moeller (someone's idea of how to hit things).[/i][/color]

[color=#0000cd][i]Lastly, there's independence or inter-dependence studies. This is where it gets really annoying and frustrating, but all the best drummers are good at this. The book to get is Gary Chester's The New Breed (not part 2, which is a pointless follow-up). Another is Marco Minnemann's Extreme Interdependence, which will tie your mind in a knot. The one everyone USED to use, and which is still a cracker, is Jim Chapin's Techniques for the Modern Drummer (1947?), which is the standard jazz independence tome. Very good, and you can substitute your bass drum or hat for all the snare parts (which are played against the standard jazz ting-ta-ting rhythm).[/i][/color]