Local council have it in for double bassists

[james_guitar]

I'm fortunate enough to make a living out of teaching and gigs, but have recently purchased an AER Compact Mobile (battery powered) amplifier for busking with my classical guitar. I have also purchased a Phil Jones Briefcase (also battery powered) for busking with my double bass, as my partner plays jazz piano and we do a duo.

I invested in this gear as I liked the idea of being able to generate income from busking should my students cancel or gigs fall through. Anyway, once I got the amps I contacted my local council who charge you £5 per day to busk on the high street (in Weston-Super-Mare - don't laugh!). Not only that, but they only allow you to do so if you have public liability insurance (I'm not sure how my classical guitar could be a danger to anyone, but I played the game and spent £170 on the insurance). Incidentally, there are no U.K. laws against busking; however, a few councils have introduced busking fees to generate extra income.

Here's what happened...

Having paid for both public liability insurance and a weeks worth of busking fees, I took my classical guitar and amp on to the high street and tried it out. Financially it was great; I got £60 within an hour and the elderly people that are usually the most likely to complain against this sort of thing really enjoyed the classical and jazz pieces and were very generous with tips. This was great until a local counciller told me that I wasn't allowed to busk with an amplifer and told me to go.

I went back to the councillers who had issued my licence and they agreed that I wasn't allowed to busk with an amplifier. They also confirmed that it's okay for bagpipes, brass instruments or even drum kits to busk as they are unamplified, but classical guitars, double basses or other quiet instruments that require it to be heard are not allowed to use amplification.

In summary, I've invested a lot of money in to my double bass and classical guitar busking gear and my local council have now made it impossible for me to use this gear for its purpose. I've just had an article printed in the local paper about it, but it probably won't change anything unless there's some public interest...

[url="http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/musician_highlights_busking_red_tape_1_970917"]Weston Mercury Busking Article[/url]

Have any other members of this forum encountered this problem? I can't work out how anyone benefits from this red tape in any way...

[dannybuoy]

Drape some fur over it and disguise it as a dog?

[daz]

Can they show you where [i]in law [/i]its illegal to busk when amplified ? Sounds to me as if they have just made it up, or had a show of hands at some meeting. Im sure this could be fought it one had the time, inclination, and possibly money?

[Monckyman]

Sounds like a lazy way to police decibel limits to me.
Manchester allows amplifiers, but limits the Db.
Pretty sure Leeds allows amps too,and they have serious busker plague.

[oldslapper]

Local councils make up their own laws/rules as they go along.
I've seen buskers in south somerset playing electric guitars through amps.

The only way of getting your own way with these people is to go to the committee meetings with one trouser leg rolled up and give the chairman a "special" handshake.

[bassace]

Councils are given a lot of discretion to frame their own local regulations within the law. Parking charges and alcohol free zones come to mind. There are several instances of 'no amplified busking' regulations being in force. Initially I think it was to confine the sound to within the area of the actual performance rather than electric guitars blasting down the High Street. No amplified busking is an easy catch-all definition that doesn't take much skill to draft but unfortunately it includes instruments that need an amp to be heard at all, eg keyboards, singers, flutes and even acoustic guitars and of course all kinds of upright basses. I presume councils have got enough on their minds without having to consider what is or isn't a loud amplified instrument and the difficulties in enforcing a more specific regulation.

A while ago I did a jazz gig on the quarter deck of HMS Belfast with sax, trombone, keyboard and bass. We were setting up and some jobsworth came along a said no amplified music in the Pool of London. We explained our predicament and got away with it.

Incidentally, for less than the cost of James's public liability insurance he could have taken out a Musicians Union subscription. This would have provided PL insurance plus £2k's worth of instrument insurance in addition to a lot of other benefits. I'm not really a 'union' man but I was glad to be a member when my double bass suffered over £1k of damage two months ago, all covered by MU insurance.

[kembo_dee]

This website also does liability insurance for teaching etc
[url="http://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/"]http://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/[/url]

I got £5 million liability insurance to teach dance for about £70, I can't see the risk being much for standing in a street playing an instrument? Might be cheap.

cheers

Kembo

[Beedster]

Personally I think a no-amplification rule is no bad thing. Living in a tourist city in which a load of often talentless chancers plug in to unnecessarily loud amps and play badly to baking tracks of Peruvian Pan-Pipes, Chicago Blues and even classical opera, I long for the day when Canterbury City Council say enough is enough. Apart from anything else, the bleed from busker to busker means that all too often there is a mush or undefined noise, resulting in a decibel arms race. OK, the approach described by the OP is arguably lazy/one-size-fits-all law enforcement, but hey, there's no money for local authorities to do more at present, and would you rather have law enforcement tied up with buskers or muggers? I've busked DB without amplification and had no trouble being heard, as was the case with the singer and the acoustic guitarist at the same time.

Keyboards? Well, they should be banned anyway shouldn't they

[Beedster]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1318049' date='Jul 27 2011, 10:54 AM']Personally I think a no-amplification rule is no bad thing. Living in a tourist city in which a load of often talentless chancers plug in to unnecessarily loud amps and play badly to baking tracks of Peruvian Pan-Pipes, Chicago Blues and even classical opera, I long for the day when Canterbury City Council say enough is enough. Apart from anything else, the bleed from busker to busker means that all too often there is a mush or undefined noise, resulting in a decibel arms race. OK, the approach described by the OP is arguably lazy/one-size-fits-all law enforcement, but hey, there's no money for local authorities to do more at present, and would you rather have law enforcement tied up with buskers or muggers? I've busked DB without amplification and had no trouble being heard, as was the case with the singer and the acoustic guitarist at the same time.

Keyboards? Well, they should be banned anyway shouldn't they [/quote]

I should probably add that too many 'buskers' down seem to expect the sort of audience size and sound coverage you'd expect at a festival, and therefore believe that they need to be excessively amplified to be heard.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

A blanket ban on all amplification is lazy & ignorant. Backing tracks should be banned though - thats not busking - its karaoke.

[TheRev]

Pop up the A370 to Bristol - there doesn't seem to be a problem with amplified busking here.

*Edit*

Just read the newspaper article and see that you play at the Raglan Arms - flippin' great little venue! We always enjoy our gigs there.

Edited July 27, 2011 by TheRev

[Balcro]

To the best of my knowledge, Councillors in themselves have no legal authority to "move you on". That would be the responsibility
of something like a street-trading inspector, who would be able to inofrm you/refer to the local regulations relating to busking.

The following might be of interest -

[i]From the minutes of North-Somerset District Council:

QUESTION NO. 3

From Councillor Crockford-Hawley
To Councillor Roe, Leader of the Council

[b]Weston-super-Mare Town Centre Partnership/Company[/b]

(1) Would the relevant Executive Member indicate the areas of responsibility which have been vested by
this Council in the Weston-super-Mare Town Centre Partnership/Company and the Town Centre Manager?

(2) What financial contributions, commitments and office facilities have been granted by this Council to the
Town Centre Partnership/Company and the Town Centre Manager?”


Reply:

“(1) Weston-super-Mare Town Centre Company (TCC) was established to promote the economic vitality of the town centre. Earlier this year, as a part of their initiative to deter illegal trading and encourage quality busking and events in and around the High Street, the TCC requested that the Council allow them to take on the responsibility of event organisation and management at three key locations - Town Square, Italian Gardens and Big Lamp Corner. The Executive Member for
Economic Development agreed to a trial period (to be reviewed after twelve months) during which a number of new
events and activities have taken place, culminating in the location of an ice rink on the Town Square on the run up to this Christmas.

The Council (N-S DC) retains all other responsibilities for these areas and no other ‘responsibilities’ have been vested in the TCC by this Council.

(2) When the TCC was originally formed, North Somerset Council provided annual grant funding (£15,000) and office accommodation at the Winter Gardens for the Town Centre Manager. This funding support finished in March 2002 but the Council continues to provide an office at the Winter Gardens. Computer, telephone and other office services are paid for by the TCC. North Somerset Council also supports the TCC with Member representation on the Board of Directors and with officer help and advice when needed.”
[/i]


So N. Somerset DC are the major power, but WSM Town Council is responsible for just a few local functions,i.e looking after activities on the beach. You (or a mate) could contact the Town Centre Manager and ask him for details of street trading, busking etc, and whether he can provide you with copies of the relevant rules and regulations. You might also contact North Somerset D.C and find out their attitude to street-trading/busking in WSM. They may well have on-line T's and C's. However, they may also be responsible for what's called street-trading Licences/Consents, even inside WSM.

Obviously someone will have to consider the potential for "nuisance", but that proviso is found everywhere. It is possible to play with and amplifier and not cause a nuisance.

Balcro.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='james_guitar' post='1317884' date='Jul 27 2011, 01:52 AM']I'm fortunate enough to make a living out of teaching and gigs, but have recently purchased an AER Compact Mobile (battery powered) amplifier for busking with my classical guitar. I have also purchased a Phil Jones Briefcase (also battery powered) for busking with my double bass, as my partner plays jazz piano and we do a duo.

I invested in this gear as I liked the idea of being able to generate income from busking should my students cancel or gigs fall through. Anyway, once I got the amps I contacted my local council who charge you £5 per day to busk on the high street (in Weston-Super-Mare - don't laugh!). Not only that, but they only allow you to do so if you have public liability insurance (I'm not sure how my classical guitar could be a danger to anyone, but I played the game and spent £170 on the insurance). Incidentally, there are no U.K. laws against busking; however, a few councils have introduced busking fees to generate extra income.

Here's what happened...

Having paid for both public liability insurance and a weeks worth of busking fees, I took my classical guitar and amp on to the high street and tried it out. Financially it was great; I got £60 within an hour and the elderly people that are usually the most likely to complain against this sort of thing really enjoyed the classical and jazz pieces and were very generous with tips. This was great until a local counciller told me that I wasn't allowed to busk with an amplifer and told me to go.

I went back to the councillers who had issued my licence and they agreed that I wasn't allowed to busk with an amplifier. They also confirmed that it's okay for bagpipes, brass instruments or even drum kits to busk as they are unamplified, but classical guitars, double basses or other quiet instruments that require it to be heard are not allowed to use amplification.

In summary, I've invested a lot of money in to my double bass and classical guitar busking gear and my local council have now made it impossible for me to use this gear for its purpose. I've just had an article printed in the local paper about it, but it probably won't change anything unless there's some public interest...

[url="http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/musician_highlights_busking_red_tape_1_970917"]Weston Mercury Busking Article[/url]

Have any other members of this forum encountered this problem? I can't work out how anyone benefits from this red tape in any way...[/quote]


Heard through a friend the same situation exists in Brighton

[Blademan_98]

No amplifier ban in Aylesbury

Not many buskers either.

There are only two spots I am aware of for busking and neither are over subscribed

I thought about it, but I don't think I can get a big enough battery for the Marshall stack

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1318049' date='Jul 27 2011, 10:54 AM']Personally I think a no-amplification rule is no bad thing. Living in a tourist city in which a load of often talentless chancers plug in to unnecessarily loud amps and play badly to baking tracks of Peruvian Pan-Pipes, Chicago Blues and even classical opera, I long for the day when Canterbury City Council say enough is enough. Apart from anything else, the bleed from busker to busker means that all too often there is a mush or undefined noise, resulting in a decibel arms race. OK, the approach described by the OP is arguably lazy/one-size-fits-all law enforcement, but hey, there's no money for local authorities to do more at present, and would you rather have law enforcement tied up with buskers or muggers? I've busked DB without amplification and had no trouble being heard, as was the case with the singer and the acoustic guitarist at the same time.[/quote]

+1.

[daz]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1318049' date='Jul 27 2011, 10:54 AM']Personally I think a no-amplification rule is no bad thing. Living in a tourist city in which a load of often talentless chancers plug in to unnecessarily loud amps and play badly to baking tracks of Peruvian Pan-Pipes,[/quote]


I would gladly throw the entire (so called) Peruvian pipe bands into the pit of Hades, [i]en masse[/i]. If i ever got the chance. I [b]Loathe [/b]the awfull din they fart out.

PS: I agree on the backing tracks thing too. They should be outlawed. Its no more [i]busking,[/i] than me putting on radio 1 and singing over the top.

Edited July 27, 2011 by daz

[thisnameistaken]

Try a different town if Weston is making life hard for you.

Here in York you can use amps so long as you're reasonable about your level. The council ask that if any nearby businesses or the police ask you to turn it down or off then you should do so, and that you should move your pitch at least every 2 hours so you don't wind up local businesses, but IME you don't get any trouble if you're sensible about it.

The council do have a stupid busking badge system though, there's no charge but you have to be licensed, and it's hard to get a badge because the women in the office that deals with applications are all lazy fat old witches. I think it's a reaction to an army of smackhead beggars with penny whistles playing Annie's Song on every street corner a few years back, and it would work if the council admin heifers weren't so sh*t.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1318173' date='Jul 27 2011, 12:56 PM']Heard through a friend the same situation exists in Brighton[/quote]
[url="http://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/downloads/bhcc/environmental_protection/Busking_front_and_back.pdf"]Here's the council rules for busking in Brighton & Hove.[/url]

It includes 'no drummers' and 'no amplification' but I've often seen both.

[EssentialTension]

Looking back now, I feel sure that the situation for buskers has improved.

Back in the early 1980s I remember having to go to court to pay bail to get our vocalist out of the clink for non-payment of his busking fines so that he could make our gig that night. They'd also confiscated his guitar.

[james_guitar]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1317969' date='Jul 27 2011, 09:41 AM']Sounds like a lazy way to police decibel limits to me.
Manchester allows amplifiers, but limits the Db.
Pretty sure Leeds allows amps too,and they have serious busker plague.[/quote]

That's what I thought. A lot of acoustic instruments like drums and bagpipes are naturally harsh and very loud, so why allow them but make it difficult for quiter, more pleasant sounding instruments? With the ammount the charge each busker per day, they should just allow you to amplify within reason and randomly check on you once or twice during the day. They're wasting so much time moving people on that they'd be better off doing it this way.

Speaking of karaoke, there's one guy that busks next to the high street with his karaoke set-up and 1000 watt PA (which is facing the high steet). I spoke to both him and the council about it and apprently he's allowed to because he has a 'street trading license'.

I'm not a big fan of the Peruvian flute bands either. The ones that do it in our area don't have licenses; they just chance it and get moved on eventually. They don't get equipment confiscated and earn a lot of money, so there's no reson for them to stop. The council should just let them pay for a license as they're missing out on the busking fee and wasting time by moving them each day.

In response to Beedster's comment; the Town Centre Partnership wouldn't otherwise be 'stopping muggers'; their sole responsabilities include busking in the town centre and organising the high street's christmas lights. I'm not a big supporter of 'opera karaoke' either. I just think reasonable amplification should be allowed if your instrument is inaudable without it. Why allow drummers and bagpipes to busk, but make it impossible for fingerstyle guitarists and double bassists etc? As for busking unplugged, I'm not going to make my partner bring a full-size/grand piano every time she wants to busk. I'm also not willing to strum my classical guitar hard whilst shouting the lyrics Streets Of London as an alternative to playing classical pieces.

I've tried busking in Bath, but there's a lot more people doing it there (meaning you get less tips). It does costs a bit on the train though and a few of their regular buskers (including a tooth-less violinist) don't like new buskers and get quite aggressive towards you. On the plus, Bath are very organised with it; they have a website with sensible rules and regulations, and hold daily meetings. Because they monitor it and have sensible rules in place, the standard of busking is far better (and doesn't upset any locals).

[url="http://www.bathbuskers.co.uk/"]www.bathbuskers.co.uk/[/url]

I think I might have to go with Dannybuoys first suggestion and disguise the amp as a dog. Either that or I'll keep trying other areas until the TCP revise their rules. (maybe even move to Aylesbury)

Thanks,

James

P.S. to 'Bassace'; Incidentally, it was £160 I'd spent, not £170 - I joined the Musicians Union as the insurance quotes I was getting were around £300 per year. The instrument insurance and other perks were a nice bonus.

P.P.S. to 'the Rev' - which band do you play the Raglan Arms with? It's not a great payer, but one of my favourite venues as a lot of musos go there and they appreciate quirkier bands. They had a fire a few days ago, so will be out of action for a while

P.P.P.S. to 'Balcro' - that's a lot of interesting information you've found. I'm going to try to reason with the T.C.P. as there's been some local support. If not then I may go over their heads and contact some members of North Somerset Council.

[NickTann]

I would suggest playing without amps, or am I being to simplistic?

Down my way Southampton makes it pretty impossible to busk, apply for license 2 weeks before, only busk in one of 5 dedicated spots to be pre chosen. So no one does.

Winchester is easier as one can just turn up andplay

This may be of interest [url="http://diaryofabusker.com/"]http://diaryofabusker.com/ [/url]

[Beedster]

[quote name='james_guitar' post='1318902' date='Jul 28 2011, 02:22 AM']In response to Beedster's comment; the Town Centre Partnership wouldn't otherwise be 'stopping muggers'; their sole responsabilities include busking in the town centre and organising the high street's christmas lights.[/quote]

Yes, and they probably have 50% of the man-hours and 25% of the budget they had available to do the same two jobs a year ago. My point was made in that context; what I meant was that given the choice I, and probably most people, would rather LA's maintained other more important functions, and if having crude one-size-fits-all rules for buskers is part of that process, so be it. The clever or professional busker of course takes the approach that rules are there to be broken and finds away around them, whilst the amateurs move on to another town

[TheRev]

[quote name='james_guitar' post='1318902' date='Jul 28 2011, 02:22 AM']P.P.S. to 'the Rev' - which band do you play the Raglan Arms with? It's not a great payer, but one of my favourite venues as a lot of musos go there and they appreciate quirkier bands. They had a fire a few days ago, so will be out of action for a while [/quote]

I'm in RedLemon, we were last there about a month ago. I completely agree about the patrons, The Raglan is the only venue where we get cheering for playing Robert Wyatt and Leonard Cohen songs. Hope that they're back on their feet soon.

[WalMan]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1318173' date='Jul 27 2011, 12:56 PM']Heard through a friend the same situation exists in Brighton[/quote]
Not obviously last time I was over there

[51m0n]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1318173' date='Jul 27 2011, 12:56 PM']Heard through a friend the same situation exists in Brighton[/quote]

Nah, dont believe it, there is regular amplified busking in Brighton, all sorts of it too, from jazz to rock, even entire bands sometimes near the shopping center.

Always has been.