BAD DESIGNS ok lets have em,

[funkgod]

Thought it might be a good topic, as i have a few i want too chuck in..
i dont want to start this as a way of getting back at makers for any reason.
hell it might even do some good...

Ok, al get the ball rolling.
my 1st nomination goes to Musicman for that GOTOH plastic Battery compartment on the back.
its like something from.... toys are us.
mine....
1,.... the wires came off,
2,....the -NEG terminal rotted at the bottom
3,.... the plastic clip snapped

so i swapped for the old RS snap...


I know some love it, but to me the old chrome cover and battery snap was perfect.
how often do you change the battery anyway that you could not be bothered to undo two screws.
a small price to pay for reliability....

Edited November 22, 2010 by funkgod

[icastle]

[quote name='funkgod' post='1033369' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:19 PM']how often do you change the battery anyway that you could not be bothered to undo two screws.[/quote]

Ah.
The problem is though that after a few years of wear the screws don't grip the wood properly and then you have to do "microwoodwork" with a bottle of PVA, a box of matches and a dremel.
I'm surprised that more manufacturers don't use a little threaded insert and a bolt to be honest.

[xilddx]

[quote name='funkgod' post='1033369' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:19 PM']Thought it might be a good topic, as i have a few i want too chuck in..
i dont want to start this as a way of getting back at makers for any reason.
hell it might even do some good...

Ok, al get the ball rolling.
my 1st nomination goes to Musicman for that GOTOH plastic Battery compartment on the back.
its like something from.... toys are us.
mine....
1,.... the wires came off,
2,....the -NEG terminal rotted at the bottom
3,.... the plastic clip snapped

so i swapped for the old RS snap...


I know some love it, but to me the old chrome cover and battery snap was perfect.
how often do you change the battery anyway that you could not be bothered to undo two screws.
a small price to pay for reliability....[/quote]
sh*t, I bought one and was going to install it on my Electra build but decided against it. How am I going to sell it on here now

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='silddx' post='1033385' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:29 PM']sh*t, I bought one and was going to install it on my Electra build but decided against it. How am I going to sell it on here now [/quote]


If it's a doubler (18V) I'll have it......

G.

[xilddx]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' post='1033419' date='Nov 23 2010, 12:03 AM']If it's a doubler (18V) I'll have it......

G.[/quote]
Nah, it's just the single 9v, sorry G.

[icastle]

[quote name='silddx' post='1033385' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:29 PM']sh*t, I bought one and was going to install it on my Electra build but decided against it. How am I going to sell it on here now [/quote]


"As advertised on Bass Chat" ?

[funkgod]

[quote name='icastle' post='1033379' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:25 PM']Ah.
The problem is though that after a few years of wear the screws don't grip the wood properly and then you have to do "microwoodwork" with a bottle of PVA, a box of matches and a dremel.
I'm surprised that more manufacturers don't use a little threaded insert and a bolt to be honest.[/quote]

a good idea .... all the corners of the screw holes in the plastic surround on mine had cracked

Edited November 23, 2010 by funkgod

[Count Bassy]

Bass cases, even 'fitted' hard cases, where simply putting the bass in knocks the end tuner. Only a minor problem I know, and I'd always check the tuning anyway, but it really annoying knowing that that one string will be out whenever you take it out the case.

Also cases which are way to bulky for the instrument inside - it offends my sense of efficiency.

[icastle]

[quote name='funkgod' post='1033449' date='Nov 23 2010, 12:55 AM']a good idea .... all the corners of the screw holes in the plastic surround on mine had cracked[/quote]

And, designed right, it'd only need one insert and bolt to hold it shut, be no more expensive than what they currently use and be quicker to assemble on a production line...
The "bolt" should be captive (so it can't seperate from the plate and get dropped) and have a single flat slot large enough to undo with a 5p coin in case of emergencies.

Methinks I'm in the wrong job

[icastle]

[quote name='Count Bassy' post='1033454' date='Nov 23 2010, 01:14 AM']Bass cases, even 'fitted' hard cases, where simply putting the bass in knocks the end tuner. Only a minor problem I know, and I'd always check the tuning anyway, but it really annoying knowing that that one string will be out whenever you take it out the case.[/quote]

I have two identical hard cases, if I put my ESP in it then it's fine but my JB is always massively out of tune, so yes - definately a bad design there.

[quote name='Count Bassy' post='1033454' date='Nov 23 2010, 01:14 AM']Also cases which are way to bulky for the instrument inside - it offends my sense of efficiency.[/quote]

I think that's probably the guitar equivalent of a cars "crumple zone"

[Mr. Foxen]

Rickenbackers. So many improvements can be made and they have stubbornly stuck to a design that has never known an engineer. I think that is where Fender has it, Leo was an engineer and not a musician.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I'm my ns-design CR5M, the method of adjusting the magnetic pickup height is just weird.

Gibson 3 point bridge as used on the thunderbird - remove or break a string & lose the saddle

Ashbory bass lined fingerboard - to play in tune fingers have to be way behind the fretline - I'm sure a lot of people dismiss it as being impossible to play in tune as they try play on the line

Gibson headstock joints where they snap off at the slightest knock

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1033465' date='Nov 23 2010, 01:53 AM']Rickenbackers. So many improvements can be made and they have stubbornly stuck to a design that has never known an engineer. I think that is where Fender has it, Leo was an engineer and not a musician.[/quote]

+1

If they evolved Rickenbackers I would own one. In the current state, I just couldnt see myself sticking with it.

Re: MM battery covers. I agree the chrome looks nice, but I think the plastic ones with the flip section are much easier to use.

[neepheid]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1033498' date='Nov 23 2010, 08:06 AM']Gibson 3 point bridge as used on the thunderbird - remove or break a string & lose the saddle

Gibson headstock joints where they snap off at the slightest knock[/quote]

Agreed on the 3 point bridge, it's all kinds of awful. Thankfully for those who it bugs sufficiently there's the Hipshot Supertone replacement bridge

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1033539' date='Nov 23 2010, 09:12 AM']+1

If they evolved Rickenbackers I would own one. In the current state, I just couldnt see myself sticking with it.

Re: MM battery covers. I agree the chrome looks nice, but I think the plastic ones with the flip section are much easier to use.[/quote]

+1 No problems with my flip top in nearly 9 years and no need to worry about having a screwdriver like I do for my pre EB version.
My jack socket is starting to misbehave though so thats due a session of tinkering and as its on the 3 EQ EBMM its mounted to the pcb! Joy.

Shall I be first to mention the legendary and to some faultless (Your not playing it hard enough then ) Fender BBOT bridge?

[Fat Rich]

Old Fenders where you have to take the neck off to adjust the truss rod.

Why don't all basses have 2 strap buttons on the bottom that act like feet and allow your instrument to lean against things without falling over? Status have been doing that for 30 years, you'd have thought someone else would have copied it.

Gus basses that slide down your leg unless you have it on a strap when playing sitting down.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Fat Rich

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1033596' date='Nov 23 2010, 10:01 AM']Shall I be first to mention the legendary and to some faultless (Your not playing it hard enough then ) Fender BBOT bridge?[/quote]
I like 'em on a precison - but then again I don't it play too hard

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1033604' date='Nov 23 2010, 10:07 AM']Old Fenders where you have to take the neck off to adjust the truss rod.[/quote]
That's a right pain on my MIJ '62 P. The little wheel thing used on musicman & Peavey basses is a great improvement.

[BigRedX]

Some of the Fender design choices might have made some sort of sense back in the 50s from a cost-cutting PoV, but now over 50 years on there's no reason other than stubbornly clinging to the past not to change them.

For instance the non-angled headstock. It's a great way of getting a neck out of a smaller piece of wood, and yes, compared with the Gibson all-mahogany necks is potentially stronger, but it comes with it's own set of compromises and problems.

Firstly it is almost impossible to get the same break angle on all the strings. IMO consistency of break angle does a lot to make the feel of the strings consistent from one string to the next.

Secondly in order to get a sensible break angle at all on the strings you have to do one of two things - either wind ridiculous amounts of string around the machine head post to lower the point at which the string leaves the post or use string retainers/trees. Neither of these methods do anything for tuning smoothness or stability.

It is well known that the optimum amount of string to wrap around the machine head post is just a bit more than is required to stop the string from slipping. In practice this works out at around 2 - 2½ turns. In order to get a decent break angle on a non-angled headstock on the E and A strings you are looking at a minimum of 4 turns. This extra string length takes much longer to give up it's excess elasticity when tuning hence the strings take much longer to settle down to a stable tuning (even if you do take the time to stretch the first - the string on the machine heads takes longer to give up that stretch).

String trees don't do much for tunability either. While a well-designed lubricated string tree will work fairly well with plain guitar strings, as you up the string thickness and add windings to the string, you increase the tendency for the string to stick at any potential obstacle in its path, and the string tree which is forcing the string to change direction is more than enough of an obstacle to give rise to irritating tuning problems.

I'm sure these points are all moot if you're planning on sticking a set of flats on your bass and leaving them there for the next 10+ years, but my point is that how we play the bass has moved on since the original Fender designs but, they haven't moved on to match. There are new method of construction that are better and in many cases even cheaper than the work-arounds devised by Fender back in the 50s.

These days even the crappiest of Chinese guitar factories can build a fantastically strong angled headstock, so all the original reasons for the non-angled headstock have long gone, but some manufacturers still insist on using a construction method that these days has no benefit other than nostalgia.

[Lysdexia]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1033465' date='Nov 23 2010, 01:53 AM']Rickenbackers. So many improvements can be made and they have stubbornly stuck to a design that has never known an engineer. I think that is where Fender has it, Leo was an engineer and not a musician.[/quote]

Yup.

When I can afford it I'm going to have a Ric 4003 customised to add a camber where your right arm goes over the body. That one thing absolutely does my head in and I'm a huge fan of their sound.

[stingrayPete1977]

In fairness to Fender BigRedX whenever they have tried to modernise (Fender plus for one example) no one really likes them and this is reflected in the values for things like P deluxes with the extra pup and no scratch plate or the modern colour schemes that limits your sale now that was current at the time say in the 80's. Sure there are people on this site that love those more oddball fenders but as a business trying to sell 1000's of each model who can blame them? There is more GAS on this site alone for 57Ri's, MIJ jazzes CS P basses etc etc than for any of the modern designs which have no doubt ironed out some of Leo's niggles, Human nature I suppose?

Edited November 23, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[Rich]

[quote name='silddx' post='1033385' date='Nov 22 2010, 11:29 PM']How am I going to sell it on here now [/quote]
Not all in block caps, ideally

[simon1964]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1033465' date='Nov 23 2010, 01:53 AM']Rickenbackers. So many improvements can be made and they have stubbornly stuck to a design that has never known an engineer. I think that is where Fender has it, Leo was an engineer and not a musician.[/quote]

Thing is with Rickenbacker that they have updated their designs to take out the quirks (eg the 4004 bass which has a modern bridge, pickups etc) but then nobody buys them!

Edited November 23, 2010 by simon1964

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='simon1964' post='1033780' date='Nov 23 2010, 12:34 PM']Thing is with Rickenbacker that they have updated their designs to take out the quirks (eg the 4004 bass which has a modern bridge, pickups etc) but then nobody buys them![/quote]

They forgot to take out the 'massively overpriced' quirk, and the 'no-one started off playing a lookalike and saved up for the real thing' quirk.

As for Fenders non-angled headstocks, changing it is a fairly major thing, you either end up not with a 1 piece neck and corresponding, cutting and glueing time, or using loads of wood wastage. Fenders are Fords, the fact that some of them are Cadillac prices does change that.

[zero9]

The double bass. It's too bulky, doesn't stay in tune and needs to be amplified.

[bumnote]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1033465' date='Nov 23 2010, 01:53 AM']Rickenbackers. So many improvements can be made and they have stubbornly stuck to a design that has never known an engineer. I think that is where Fender has it, Leo was an engineer and not a musician.[/quote]

I cant get on with them, but on the other hand,they have a long waiting list, and their basses have good resale values, i dont suppose rick are that worried