Are old amps louder or are bands playing louder nowadays?

[ironside1966]

Are old amps louder or are bands playing louder nowadays?
In the seventies and 80’s very few bass had above 200w but few complained.
Is it that the old gear was big and heavy and more efficient? I understand that some people want Hi tones which take up more head room.

[51m0n]

Nope, you just couldnt hear the bass then....

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='51m0n' post='854741' date='Jun 2 2010, 12:41 PM']Nope, you just couldnt hear the bass then....[/quote]

[ironside1966]

I know some say the sometimes you had to use the EQ to bring the sound forward rather than the master volume but that is what sound engineers do all the time

[dan670844]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='854735' date='Jun 2 2010, 12:37 PM']Are old amps louder or are bands playing louder nowadays?
In the seventies and 80’s very few bass had above 200w but few complained.
Is it that the old gear was big and heavy and more efficient? I understand that some people want Hi tones which take up more head room.[/quote]

Its all to do with speaker efficiency and the amount of surface area you have on the speakers.

You can easy gig with 100 watts if you have speakers that are sensitive enough and you have enough surface area. That was the era of the massive stacks (i.e. lots of speakers). High sensitvity speakers need less watts to move so are much more efficient with the power, the problem is they are expensive to make and tend to blow quite frequently.

Another point is how the RMS figure is measured. Most modern amps have there RMS quoted at 1Khz for example. A lot of older stuff in Particular the old Trace / Marshall/ Ampeg stuff the RMS figure is quoted across a frequency range. Which means that they can deliver their watts down as low as 100hz or so. This is why noobs are always amazed at how loud an old AH300 is. There is a big difference between 300watts at 100hz and 300 watts at 1Khz as the low freq takes a lot more power to create. Noone can ever say that an old SVT with its puny 300watts through its high sensitivity 8x10's isnt loud. It will literally take you head off on full bore and would be far too loud, and I cannot really see a call for so much volume in any application these days with house sound.

Also everyone wants deep full bass from tiny little boxes these days, that you can do but you need a lot of power to get these modern long excusion drivers moving enough to generate the bass that you want at a sensible Db rating.

The 60's and 70's era rock band was loud and I mean spine tingly hurting loud, you will never see that level of heavy bass again due to health and safety!!!

A few years back I saw Black Sabbath at a private warm up gig in Aylesbury civiv centr, as it was a closed show Geezer had his old SVTs cranked, that was so loud it literally made you ribs rattle, if anyone else made it there they know what I mean! ................nice

[ironside1966]

[quote name='dan670844' post='854792' date='Jun 2 2010, 01:10 PM']Its all to do with speaker efficiency and the amount of surface area you have on the speakers.

You can easy gig with 100 watts if you have speakers that are sensitive enough and you have enough surface area. That was the era of the massive stacks (i.e. lots of speakers). High sensitvity speakers need less watts to move so are much more efficient with the power, the problem is they are expensive to make and tend to blow quite frequently.

Another point is how the RMS figure is measured. Most modern amps have there RMS quoted at 1Khz for example. A lot of older stuff in Particular the old Trace / Marshall/ Ampeg stuff the RMS figure is quoted across a frequency range. Which means that they can deliver their watts down as low as 100hz or so. This is why noobs are always amazed at how loud an old AH300 is. There is a big difference between 300watts at 100hz and 300 watts at 1Khz as the low freq takes a lot more power to create. Noone can ever say that an old SVT with its puny 300watts through its high sensitivity 8x10's isnt loud. It will literally take you head off on full bore and would be far too loud, and I cannot really see a call for so much volume in any application these days with house sound.

Also everyone wants deep full bass from tiny little boxes these days, that you can do but you need a lot of power to get these modern long excusion drivers moving enough to generate the bass that you want at a sensible Db rating.

The 60's and 70's era rock band was loud and I mean spine tingly hurting loud, you will never see that level of heavy bass again due to health and safety!!!

A few years back I saw Black Sabbath at a private warm up gig in Aylesbury civiv centr, as it was a closed show Geezer had his old SVTs cranked, that was so loud it literally made you ribs rattle, if anyone else made it there they know what I mean! ................nice[/quote]

Good point well made
I do suspect that they massage the figures to make them more consumer friendly.
Power amps are now rated at 2 ohms but only the best will not overheat after a few minuets .
Compare a Vox AC 30 to a Laney S S amp what a difference

[dan670844]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='854807' date='Jun 2 2010, 01:22 PM']Good point well made
I do suspect that they massage the figures to make them more consumer friendly.
Power amps are now rated at 2 ohms but only the best will not overheat after a few minuets .
Compare a Vox AC 30 to a Laney S S amp what a difference[/quote]

He he 2 ohms cheap power amp no names mentioned but it begins with beh 4 ohms great 2 ohms nooooooooooooo!!
moral buy a peavey or a crown!

[alanbass1]

Back in the 70's I typically made up for the lack of brute power with the number/efficiency of speakers.

[escholl]

I think it has to do with a combination of factors, including the way the bass is generally EQ'd nowadays versus 30 years ago.

I've got a 250 watt head from....1983, i think? Never had a problem with volume through two 15's, if anything I've usually only got it up a little over halfway at gigs.

[EssentialTension]

Back then I was usually playing with 100-200 watts of valve power through four or eight 12" speakers. It was loud and the sound quality was poor. These days I'm more likely to be using 300-500 watts of solid state or perhaps valve front end through one or two 12" or 15" speakers. It's still loud but the sound quality is no longer poor. My ears hurt much much less.

[dan670844]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='854807' date='Jun 2 2010, 01:22 PM']Good point well made
I do suspect that they massage the figures to make them more consumer friendly.
Power amps are now rated at 2 ohms but only the best will not overheat after a few minuets .
Compare a Vox AC 30 to a Laney S S amp what a difference[/quote]


But also Laney valve amps are nice the new nexus valve and FET range is very good, but can you find anyone who stocks it! hell no

[Mr. Foxen]

Speakers are better in home systems and such, so people expect more bass now. Also, detuning, needs much more power, and 5 strings etc.

[Phil Starr]

Actually I think a lot of this has to do with technology. When I started amplifier watts were really expensive and transistors which ran above 70V were unreliable and almost non existent. 100W was a big amp. Speakers were therefore made to squeeze as much sound out as possible with lots of big but lightweight cones which were loud but lacked bass extension.

Now with FET's and class D amps watts cost pennies and we have more flexibility. Unfortunately guitarists watts are equally cheap and they can all afford to buy amps which make your ears bleed so we have to compete.

The other thing is the improvement in PA's and monitors. We can be quieter on stage if we want and let the PA do the work. Hence all the metallists discussing 2x4x10's versus 8x10 whilst others pursue the ultimate lightweight solution. We are in the great situation of having choice so long as the rest of the band let us.

[Adrenochrome]

In my experience people are using less speaker area. I started gigging with a 100w amp and a decent 4x12 cab, then a huge 1x15 and 4x10 stack - still with 100 watt amps. The 1x15 + 4x10 was enough to fill a pub without PA. Now I can get away with a 2x10 for gigging as I have an amp that will do up to 300w into an 8 ohm cab, plus decent PA support.

[ironside1966]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='855990' date='Jun 3 2010, 12:39 PM']The other thing is the improvement in PA's and monitors. We can be quieter on stage if we want and let the PA do the work. Hence all the metallists discussing 2x4x10's versus 8x10 whilst others pursue the ultimate lightweight solution. We are in the great situation of having choice so long as the rest of the band let us.[/quote]

I agree the reason I have a thing about loud amps is that a live engineer for a long time and very loud musicians are the pain of your life

[chris_b]

I know I'm playing a lot louder than 10 years ago and that was louder than the previous 10 years. I'm currently using more watts than all of the players in my first 2 bands put together!

[tayste_2000]

A great book for this is [url="http://www.mofoster.com/author_17watts.php"]http://www.mofoster.com/author_17watts.php[/url]

If you can find it

[lojo]

doesn't matter what we do, the guitarists will also find an extra bit on their dial!

But yes, we seem to be louder as far as pubs/clubs are concerned, or am I just older?

I used to get away with a 160w combo in some gigs, that would be out of the question these days

[Lozz196]

Know what you mean - In the eighties, I used a Laney Linebacker 65watt combo, in a punk band with drummer, and 2 guitarists, one of whom had a Marshall JCM800 50watt 2x12 combo (loud, loud, loud) and I used to keep up (I think)

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='857272' date='Jun 4 2010, 02:19 PM']Know what you mean - In the eighties, I used a Laney Linebacker 65watt combo, in a punk band with drummer, and 2 guitarists, one of whom had a Marshall JCM800 50watt 2x12 combo (loud, loud, loud) and I used to keep up (I think) [/quote]

I think Laney Linebacker's were issued to all 80s punk bands! Speaking from experience.

[dan670844]

[quote name='lojo' post='856542' date='Jun 3 2010, 08:51 PM']doesn't matter what we do, the guitarists will also find an extra bit on their dial!

But yes, we seem to be louder as far as pubs/clubs are concerned, or am I just older?

I used to get away with a 160w combo in some gigs, that would be out of the question these days[/quote]

Yep, very true, but you can always unscrew one of his power valves before he lights up, the advantages of open back getard combos!!!!