Why are Fodera's so expensive

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='753375' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 PM']You make a very good & relevant point. Have a skim through this site:

[url="http://cortaction.wordpress.com/"]http://cortaction.wordpress.com/[/url]

And that's Korea - one can imagine it's not going to be better for workers in China, Taiwan, Indonesia etc necessarily.

Jon.[/quote]Plus one.

[budget bassist]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='753375' date='Feb 21 2010, 11:24 PM']You make a very good & relevant point. Have a skim through this site:

[url="http://cortaction.wordpress.com/"]http://cortaction.wordpress.com/[/url]

And that's Korea - one can imagine it's not going to be better for workers in China, Taiwan, Indonesia etc necessarily.

Jon.[/quote]
I didn't read it, but the horrible conditions and minumal wages people in those countries have to put up with still don't stop us buying those basses or any other objects in our daily lives with "made in china" (or some other middle eastern country) stamped on them, which is quite a lot...

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='753259' date='Feb 21 2010, 09:07 PM']I think because manufacturers such as squier etc are making such quality affordable basses that some of the stuff that fender and the like churn out just seems very very expensive for what it is, and i have to agree - to a point. At the end of the day, is £2000 fender really going to sound 100x better than a £200 or so squier VMJ?[/quote]

-1 on the maths there....

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='XB26354' post='753349' date='Feb 21 2010, 10:55 PM']Wood = £100, maybe £150 tops if you've got something really special. [b]Which seeing as a lot of these companies seem to use tropical hard woods, of high quality and properly dried will possibly be higher than £150?[/b]
Hardware = £150 trade for the best if you buy in bulk.
Electronics = £150 - if you've got hand-wired PU's and a good circuit.
Time to put everything together (assuming woods are aged) = about 20 hours at, say £50 an hour (for a top luthier). [b]I have no idea how long these things take to make. Thats 2 guitars a week, however that would get your luthiers earning about £100,000pa....[/b]
The above includes finishing, or if your luthier doesn't do it in house you'll probably be looking at £100-£150 for a pro finish.
[b]R+D = £?
promotions, endorcements and advertising= £?
Factory hire= £?
Machinery= £?
admin= £?
N.I. contributions/healthcare plans = £?
Pension contributions= £?
V.A.T. @ 17.5% of final total? = £?[/b]


Grand total = £1600 [b]and a bit[/b]
Average Fodera = £5000+
Yes, there are designs, protoypes, hunting for and drying woods. But I'm sure the maths are there for all to see.

Is a Burberry bag really worth £1,250, or does exclusivity make the price acceptable?
I bought a jumper today for £28. I happen to know that it was made in China and cost about $2 to manufacture.

If Fodera charged £20,000 for their base model they'd soon be out of business.
They're just charging what the market will bear.

Warwick are charging £6300 for the Adam Clayton signature. Perhaps that destroys my theory straight away [/quote]

I do get your point but I'm not sure it's a simple as that.


Any item can be pushed to it's logical perfection if you throw enough money at it.

For instance Fernando Alonso's Ferrari costs millions to make, but at every point in production they chose not to skimp. The same company also make a range of fiats which are affordable. Both are cars.

[paulie]

There have been lots of interesting responses here but just to clarify a couple of things :

Firstly, this is not a slur on Fodera or the people who own them. They are beautiful basses and truth be told I would love a 4 string Wooten Monarch. But thats why I started this post, the rediculous cost of getting one.

If you took the Monarch and went for one with a buckeye top and their std electronics configuration you would be up on 6k or more possibly
If you got the same bass made by Sei in London and went for the exact same woods and materials you would be paying below 3k, included in this would be other top luthiers like Chris Larkin etc etc and the list goes on.

My question is to Vinny Fodera himself (plus the guys at Alembic) " Why does your bass cost twice as much as these others when you all use the same materials, build process, quality and final result is of the same quality overall " How do you justify your price????

The answer I may get is that its more expensive to run a business in New York due to higher rents, running costs etc. The endorsemtents that they have such as Victor Wooten add more cost, they spend more on advertising and that costs. But I guess the real answer is as many of you have pointed out : they charge what they charge because they can, the demand is there (as can be seen from the lead times)

And thats just the way it is in every market, luxury goods, electronics, cars etc.

So I guess if I want one, Ill just have to get in line and start saving hard.

Gorgeous basses though!

[The Burpster]

[quote name='paulie' post='753469' date='Feb 22 2010, 07:30 AM']And thats just the way it is in every market, luxury goods, electronics, cars etc.

So I guess if I want one, Ill just have to get in line and start saving hard.

Gorgeous basses though![/quote]

Nail, head, hammer..........

[peted]

You're all assuming that sale price should be a direct reflection of the material cost of producing an item. Why can't someone mark up their product based on brand? If you've worked really hard to promote your brand to the point where the name alone is worth 100-200% of the material cost of your product then kudos to you.

People buy the best that they can afford. I can't afford Fodera or Alembic, but I'm sure their marketing managers have profiled their target market and it just means that I'm not in it

[chris_b]

[quote]....Why are Fodera's so expensive....[/quote]
Fodera's business model is to sell to people who can afford a Fodera. Simple really!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='paulie' post='753469' date='Feb 22 2010, 07:30 AM']So I guess if I want one, Ill just have to get in line and start saving hard.[/quote]
Just bear in mind that everything that you can get on a Fodera you can get from another luthier. What you are ultimately paying for is the brand name and the status/admiration from other players that comes with recognition of that brand irrespective of how well you actually play the bass. You know the 'oh you play a Fodera? Nice basses' effect. Sure you'll be treated as a player who is serious about their instruments and thats cool, but the moment you get up on stage in front of these guys, they might also be expecting you to play like David Beezley, Matt Garrison or Richard Bona...

BTW, interesting to note Meshell Ndegeocello and Hadrien Feraud don't play their custom Fodera instruments publically any more...

[bubinga5]

they are great basses im sure...but you would be amazed how people get seduced by a high price tag.....£5- 6000.. oh its got to be the best there is surely!!

this goes for lots of consumer items

[paulie]

[quote name='bubinga5' date='Feb 22 2010, 09:51 AM' post='753525']
they are great basses im sure...but you would be amazed how people get seduced by a high price tag.....£5- 6000.. oh its got to be the best there is surely!!

this goes for lots of consumer items


Yes this is what Im driving at! Its a case of The Emperor's New CLothes with Fodera and Alembic. And as bad as Fodera's prices are some of the Alembics go for silly money. If you take a model on thier website with a standard finish and you go to upgrade the top to flame maple, that upgrade option alone can add 1k to the price!!!!!!

IF you take a Chris Larkin bass with a standard top and opt to upgrade to the same quality of flame maple, he will charge an additional 200 quid!!!!, now I know he may have less overheads etc than Alembic but he uses the best woods and spends ages making each bass.

If we keep accepting that its ok to pay 5k plus for a standard instrument then the suppliers will feel its ok to keep charging that for them. This is the very think that brought my conuntry into recession because knowbody put their foot down and said NO, THATS TOO EXPENSIVE, PULL YOUR HEAD IN MR SUPPLIER, ILL PAY 3,500 TO YOU AND YOUL STILL HAVE THE MOST EXPENISVE INSTRUMENTS ON THE BLOCK BUT IM NOT GIVING YOU 6K FOR SOMETHING THATS REALLY ONLY WORTH HALF THAT!

[Toasted]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='753221' date='Feb 21 2010, 08:30 PM']They're a bit too flash for me.... and besides, i don't think they're worth anywhere near even half what they sell for. I mean, 4 grand is a LOT to drop on a bass, but £8k+? ridiculous, and i don't see them using any superior woods/techniques that are different to say what jon shuker would use, and he likely wouldn't charge more than (or even close to) 3 grand for a bass of that caliber.[/quote]

The best Shuker I've ever played doesn't come anywhere close to the worst Fodera. They're not even playing the same sport.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Toasted' post='753543' date='Feb 22 2010, 10:14 AM']The best Shuker I've ever played doesn't come anywhere close to the worst Fodera. They're not even playing the same sport.[/quote]
???...im guessing this may be down to personal taste...i very much doubt they are that far apart in construction/playablity...

not many NYC players using Shuker's either

[Toasted]

Everything's down to personal taste. I think they're miles apart.

[Rich]

I can't comment on this as I own a Shuker (and could therefore be accused of bias) and have never played a Fodera (and so cannot make a comparison).

[paulie]

Ill leave with this final comment : I have decided that Fodera's and Alembics are overpriced becaue I have a rough idea of what instruments of their specs (workmanship, electronics, exotic woods etc) should cost. But one thing I am missing is the fact that I have never owned one of these instruments. Maybe there is something special about them that makes them worth the money. Just like you the way you cant see why every body fusses over pre cbs Jazz Bass until you eventually get to play one and the penny drops.

Ill leave it to Alembic and Fodera owners to decide.

DO you think they sell for a fair price? Do you feel that the high price tag was worth it because possibly now own the best bass you will ever have and your search for great tone is over?

IF the answer is yes, then I guess 6k is a small price to pay.

CHeers

[Rich]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='753338' date='Feb 21 2010, 10:37 PM']They aren't worth the money[/quote]
I assume this statement is based on extensive experience of Fodera basses..?

[paulie]

No I dont

And thats just my point. Ive seen them and played them in shops but never played one live or owned one. And that is why I am suggesting that there possibly is something special about them that makes them worth the money, something that only an owner who has gigged one regularly can tell you! That after you try one you will never go back.

OOPs Rich, I just realised your comment was aimed at another Basschatter. You can ignore the above
Cheers Paulie

Edited February 22, 2010 by paulie

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='753141' date='Feb 21 2010, 07:38 PM']In my opinion Rickenbackers are overpriced - terrible bridges that are fiddly at best to adjust, bridge surrounds that lacerate your fingers, 2 truss rods that work differently to nearly every other bass in existence and that most people are scared to touch, uncomfortable slab body, the midnight blue ones a couple of years ago had a finish that ran underneath the top varnish onto the binding. That and they sound nothing like they do on the records.[/quote]

Agreed about Ricks. The Rickenbackers I've seen recently looked like they'd been made as part of a school project - crude slabs of wood covered in thick varnish. Strange...

Never played a Fodera, however.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Spoombung

[E sharp]

I played one in The Gallery , a few years back , and it was alright .
This ties in with the Gus thread , with regard to pricing .
If you want it , desire it , and have the funds , you're probably going to order one . And why not ?
Personally , I can't see how much better they can be against our top builders in Britain .
I mean there surely must be some sort of quality ceiling here , that once reached , no bass is better crafted - just preference .
I'm saving for a Status Stealth , and that's not cheap . The recent price increase has definatly made me think twice . But over on the Statii pages , everyone thinks there're good value , and they are , just bloody dear .
There's obviously the kudos of the name tag with Fodera , Sadowsky et al , and also the pricing difference when they cross over the pond . British goods over there are also really pricey .

Most here think that they're over priced (and they are).
But then again isn't everything .

[solofunkyjazz]

[quote name='Toasted' post='753543' date='Feb 22 2010, 10:14 AM']The best Shuker I've ever played doesn't come anywhere close to the worst Fodera. They're not even playing the same sport.[/quote]

I've played 3 Shukers, nice basses but they all felt kind of 'stiff' (for want of a better word), it's hard to put into words but they weren't 'inspiring'.

I've played a couple of Fodera basses (very nearly bought one of 'em), they both played like a dream.

Totally different class of instrument.

But you could (I would anyway) say that Fenders and Musicman basses are way over priced for what they are. Basically a mass produced mostly machine made instrument.

Edited February 22, 2010 by solofunkyjazz

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='753510' date='Feb 22 2010, 09:27 AM']but the moment you get up on stage in front of these guys, they might also be expecting you to play like David Beezley, Matt Garrison or Richard Bona...[/quote]

Or even, god forbid, Victor Wooten...then you'd have no chance of measuring up!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='solofunkyjazz' post='754504' date='Feb 22 2010, 10:58 PM']I've played 3 Shukers, nice basses but they all felt kind of 'stiff' (for want of a better word), it's hard to put into words but they weren't 'inspiring'.[/quote]
I'd completely agree but the reason for that is Jon uses very VERY stiff maple in the necks. Having said that, my bass is incredibly responsive and sounds HUGE. Each note leaps off the fingerboard...there are NO deadspots. So long as the pickups are nice and flat tonally and your rig is also relatively flat that means superb projection on stage where softer basses might sound woolly. So might be that Shuker basses are just better live than in the bedroom/studio.

[lozbass]

Some impressively detailed, intelligent and nuanced arguments here, but hasn't all this been done to death?

Edit: 'thinking again, I suppose not judging by the number of posts...

Edited February 23, 2010 by lozbass

[CHRISDABASS]

Here's another thing to consider......


if Fodera's basses were more affordable, say £3000 then they would have double if not triple the orders which would push the waiting list through the roof and then everyone would be disappointed!!

Maybe they are priced this way to control the work flow in that tiny workshop?? im sure ive watched a video with one of the main guys pretty much saying that!