IEM Question

[vmaxblues]

Hi All,

 

I am doing more backing vocals but just cant hear myself with the onstage monitors.  I was wondering is there an IEM solution for this? Only issue is that it is only vocals going through the pA

[Noisyjon]

Just use one earbud leaving one ear open? 

[Sibob]

33 minutes ago, Noisyjon said:

Just use one earbud leaving one ear open? 

Really really bad for your hearing.

 

 

35 minutes ago, vmaxblues said:

Hi All,

 

I am doing more backing vocals but just cant hear myself with the onstage monitors.  I was wondering is there an IEM solution for this? Only issue is that it is only vocals going through the pA

Generally speaking, if you don't get moulded/fitted ear-pieces, any generic IEM earbud will let in enough ambient sound in order to monitor your bass and the band.
Flipping this on its head, I find that standard moulded earplugs (if you don't wear them already) can lead to much better vocal monitoring, as you naturally hear it more in your head. 

 

Si

Edited November 8, 2023 by Sibob

[acidbass]

You can use the same AUX out that you use for your stage monitor and run it to an IEM beltpack or transmitter, allowing you to hear the vocals in your ear much more clearly.

[vmaxblues]

Cheers guys, really useful.

 

What is a good entry level bit if kit I could use?

[PaulWarning]

8 minutes ago, vmaxblues said:

Cheers guys, really useful.

 

What is a good entry level bit if kit I could use?

our singer has used the gear4music own brand quite happily for a number of years, he did have to buy better earphones though

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Wireless-In-Ear-Monitor-System-by-Gear4music/OUE

if you haven't got your own monitor mix we've started using one of these recently, with good results

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Behringer-MA400-Monitor-Headphone-Amplifier/GX7

edit, we also only have vocals going through the PA, the singer says he can hear well enough what's going on

Edited November 8, 2023 by PaulWarning

[vmaxblues]

Brilliant, thanks for that, ordered.

[Dood]

6 hours ago, vmaxblues said:

Hi All,

 

I am doing more backing vocals but just cant hear myself with the onstage monitors.  I was wondering is there an IEM solution for this? Only issue is that it is only vocals going through the pA

 

If you are using ear plugs, I have a clever trick, but it will mean balancing the sound should you have monitors on the floor. I use moulded ear plugs and have different filter values I can swap out. Should I be doing backing vocals and IEMs aren't available the trick is to choose the filter that allows you to hear your own voice inside your head with enough volume coming in ambiently to pitch with. Furthermore, I'd pitch to my bass guitar (don't try to listen to the singer and pitch to them) meaning my own pitching was a lot better. As soon as I started using this method I received compliments on my backing vocals!

These days we use IEMs and, whilst I am currently not singing, we do have a complete mix in my ears ready for when I do.

[Dood]

Another quick pointer: I don't use any wireless kit for my current gig. I put the money that would have gone on decent wireless gear straight in to a much better set of IEMs and a wired headphone amplifier. 

[vmaxblues]

Cheers Dood!

 

[Al Krow]

19 hours ago, Sibob said:

Really really bad for your hearing.

 

Hi Si - that's a bit of a shock to read, as I know folk do exactly that quite a lot eg one IEM in the ear that's on the side giving protection from the drums and the other left open to pick up what's coming through one of the FoH PA speakers. 

 

Can you expand a bit on why it's so bad please (and also if there's been any studies done on it?)

[BlueMoon]

https://blog.judyrodman.com/2012/07/in-ear-monitors-dont-use-just-one.html#:~:text=So this loud sound coming,than using none at all.”
 

Not sure about the science behind it, but it is generally considered poor practice.

[BlueMoon]

Here’s some science:

 

https://hearinghealthmatters.org/waynesworld/2015/binaural-loudness-summation/

[Sibob]

59 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Hi Si - that's a bit of a shock to read, as I know folk do exactly that quite a lot eg one IEM in the ear that's on the side giving protection from the drums and the other left open to pick up what's coming through one of the FoH PA speakers. 

 

Can you expand a bit on why it's so bad please (and also if there's been any studies done on it?)

Another article:

https://empireears.com/blogs/news/why-you-should-never-wear-only-one-in-ear-monitor#:~:text=Wearing a single earphone increases,a risk to your hearing.

Si

[pete.young]

@Dood has another dodge which I found useful - use a Zoom H4N to mix ambient noise, monitor signal and mic/instrument and deliver to earbuds via the headphone out.

[Dood]

11 minutes ago, pete.young said:

@Dood has another dodge which I found useful - use a Zoom H4N to mix ambient noise, monitor signal and mic/instrument and deliver to earbuds via the headphone out.

 

Yes thank you!

 

I have actually much updated the "system" that I've been using for many, many years now and will eventually get round to shooting a video for it. Here's the original:-

 

 

[PaulWarning]

11 minutes ago, pete.young said:

@Dood has another dodge which I found useful - use a Zoom H4N to mix ambient noise, monitor signal and mic/instrument and deliver to earbuds via the headphone out.

worth remembering (and trying first) other mics like the singer's, backing vocal mics and even the drummers also pick up the ambient noise, it could be enough without an addition ambient mic

[Dood]

5 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

worth remembering (and trying first) other mics like the singer's, backing vocal mics and even the drummers also pick up the ambient noise, it could be enough without an addition ambient mic

 

Vocal microphones are often cardioid to reject ambient  so the benefits are very limited. I've even tried the method using the drummer's overheads, which works a little better but not as effective. A dedicated system designed to pick up ambient sound (in stereo) will "pay for itself" in a very short time. 

This is by far the cheapest and simplest method to implement, furthermore, one of the benefits is that the ambient sound is coming from where you are stood and not spread across the entire stage, meaning you actually feel more connected to the sound you are hearing. A side effect is that you can hear your cabinet sound behind you if you are also using onstage amplifiers. 

 

Oh and proper, well mixed IEM mixes, in stereo for the win.

 

 

[PaulWarning]

2 minutes ago, Dood said:

 

Vocal microphones are often cardioid to reject ambient  so the benefits are very limited. I've even tried the method using the drummer's overheads, which works a little better but not as effective. A dedicated system designed to pick up ambient sound (in stereo) will "pay for itself" in a very short time. 

This is by far the cheapest and simplest method to implement, furthermore, one of the benefits is that the ambient sound is coming from where you are stood and not spread across the entire stage, meaning you actually feel more connected to the sound you are hearing. A side effect is that you can hear your cabinet sound behind you if you are also using onstage amplifiers. 

 

Oh and proper, well mixed IEM mixes, in stereo for the win.

 

 

this is true, all I said was that it was worth trying, our singer can hear ok without an ambient mic, whether that's leakage past his earphones or what the other mics are picking up or both I don't know, but why add to the hassle (and expense) of setting up if you don't need too

[warwickhunt]

re. wearing 1 earpiece.  Having read those articles it is apparent the harm comes from the user turning up the volume to compensate when only hearing with 1 ear.  Ergo 1 ear bud in being worse than no buds in seems extreme but that is the gist of it.  I occasionally (depending on which band/gig set up) used to remove or partially remove one ear bud (moulded attenuated protectors not IEM) so that I could hear the band balance better but I always kept the bud in fully that was nearest the drummer.  At no point would volume have been increased for me to compensate, hence one ear bud in and one out would not be any worse, though I concede I was always happier with both plugs in. 

 

Just as an aside... I recently tried using a sealed plug (off the shelf silicone jobbie) in the ear closest to the drummer and my moulded attenuated -19db plug in the one closest to my monitor (mounted on a stand at ear height).  I was actually surprised but there was very little difference in overall sensation/hearing of frequencies when I swapped back to my x2 custom moulded, attenuated plugs.  

[PaulWarning]

9 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

re. wearing 1 earpiece.  Having read those articles it is apparent the harm comes from the user turning up the volume to compensate when only hearing with 1 ear.  Ergo 1 ear bud in being worse than no buds in seems extreme but that is the gist of it.  I occasionally (depending on which band/gig set up) used to remove or partially remove one ear bud (moulded attenuated protectors not IEM) so that I could hear the band balance better but I always kept the bud in fully that was nearest the drummer.  At no point would volume have been increased for me to compensate, hence one ear bud in and one out would not be any worse, though I concede I was always happier with both plugs in. 

 

Just as an aside... I recently tried using a sealed plug (off the shelf silicone jobbie) in the ear closest to the drummer and my moulded attenuated -19db plug in the one closest to my monitor (mounted on a stand at ear height).  I was actually surprised but there was very little difference in overall sensation/hearing of frequencies when I swapped back to my x2 custom moulded, attenuated plugs.  

 a local band I went to see only used one IEM, I asked them about it they said it worked for them, like you say the trouble is if you have turn up the the IEM side to silly levels to compensate, an ear plug in the non IEM side might compensate for this

[Pirellithecat]

On 09/11/2023 at 10:21, Dood said:

 

Vocal microphones are often cardioid to reject ambient  so the benefits are very limited. I've even tried the method using the drummer's overheads, which works a little better but not as effective. A dedicated system designed to pick up ambient sound (in stereo) will "pay for itself" in a very short time. 

This is by far the cheapest and simplest method to implement, furthermore, one of the benefits is that the ambient sound is coming from where you are stood and not spread across the entire stage, meaning you actually feel more connected to the sound you are hearing. A side effect is that you can hear your cabinet sound behind you if you are also using onstage amplifiers. 

 

Oh and proper, well mixed IEM mixes, in stereo for the win.

 

 

Fascinating - just back from a(nother) frustrating gig on the sound front!    So, being a simple chap, just want to check that Zoom H2N set up is connected to the IEM's with a suitably long 3.5mm Jack lead (via a connector) directly to the IEM's?  

Edited November 12, 2023 by Pirellithecat

[Dood]

3 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Fascinating - just back from a(nother) frustrating gig on the sound front!    So, being a simple chap, just want to check that Zoom H2N set up is connected to the IEM's with a suitably long 3.5mm Jack lead (via a connector) directly to the IEM's?  

Yes, that would be the most basic way to do it. Annnnnnnd it’s stereo! In my video I explain that you could feed the Zoom output in to the PA and mix the sound with an IEM mix too (mono or stereo depending on your gear) or, as I did for a gig last night, I sent the IEM mix and the Zoom mix to a personal mixer in front of me and that connected directly to my in ears. This allowed me to retain a stereo ambient mix with a mono IEM feed. Mix to taste.

[Pirellithecat]

Tried a Zoom Q2N-4K at rehearsal this week.    Promising. 
Set up unit on top of a mic stand in the "audience position",  sent Headphone "out" to mixing desk, mixed this with the vocal and bass feeds and sent via Aux Send to my wireless/in ears.   Worked fairly well for a first attempt.  
I don't think the Q2N-4K is the right tool for me though, as there would be a debate about video vs sound etc. and I don't need the hassle. 
However, the H4N Pro, (although more expensive) would work alone using one of the mic inputs for the bass, mixed in with sound from the onboard mics, freeing up an Aux send.  ........... 

 

Might be too late, but this plus in ear might do the trick, combining the need for IEMs' for sound isolation from a noisy stage whist keeping that "live" feel. 
I might just try a stand alone mic first, but the Zoom solution is very flexible and tidy.   Thanks for the pointer Dood!

Edited November 18, 2023 by Pirellithecat

[Kirky]

I used my Zoom H5 at a gig on Friday.  Took a feed from the desk (vocals only) into one input, a DI feed from my bass amp into the other, and just used the stereo mics to pick up guitar and drums.   Best monitoring I've had for ages.  I've got a little adaptor that allowed me to mount the H5 on my mic stand, and just some KZ1 earphones plugged direct into it.  So far this has been the simplest and best method I've tried, and it made for a really enjoyable gig.