Why are we still doing this?

[uk_lefty]

6 hours ago, joel406 said:

The quiet stage is the stage that sounds the best.

Joel, I'm not taking anything away from your post, you know your stuff and I'm not going to dispute it. It's just this line. This line made me think of this:

https://youtu.be/BHkhIjG0DKc

[Downunderwonder]

7 hours ago, joel406 said:

On stage amplification is detrimental to the sound you "want" the audience to hear.

Get off your high horse and acknowledge the rest of the world that often has no stage as such just a corner of the pub to set up in and play some tunes.

[lemmywinks]

4 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Get off your high horse and acknowledge the rest of the world that often has no stage as such just a corner of the pub to set up in and play some tunes.

 

I still play venues like this and it's a lot easier to get a good FoH sound without backline. Of course the PA volume is still dictated by the acoustic kit (minus kick) but generally I have a much easier time mixing with no amps on stage.

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, lemmywinks said:

 

I still play venues like this and it's a lot easier to get a good FoH sound without backline. Of course the PA volume is still dictated by the acoustic kit (minus kick) but generally I have a much easier time mixing with no amps on stage.

That's only because you have all the gear and you have buy in from the band. You wouldn't get any work in my backwater unless you carted monitors for everyone and then you would have to mix them as well. Why not just admit it's horses for courses?

[Marty Forrer]

I'm with the Downunderwonder. Most of my gigs require me to use my own PA. At 75, I've given up on carting subs, and I'd rather keep the bass out of my FOH, although I'll sometimes put a little bit of bass in there, just to balance out the mix. My drummer uses in-ears, but the rest of the band have no interest, me included.

[Jack]

7 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

That's only because you have all the gear and you have buy in from the band. You wouldn't get any work in my backwater unless you carted monitors for everyone and then you would have to mix them as well. Why not just admit it's horses for courses?

Indeed, different compromises for everyone. It took me and the drummer years to get buy in in my hard rock band. We went almost silent (it's bouncy on stage but you wouldn't need earplugs) a few years ago and it's been great but I know not everyone in every band would think that. 

 

My other (indie rock) band see the benefit of a quiet stage, but we have a 19yo studies-music-at-uni guitarist who's still very much in the 'massive amps are cool' stage of his life and we've all agreed that, to appeal to our rather traditional audience, we're not moving to artificial drums or using a shield. As such we've got me (all helix, all the time), the singer/rhythm guitarist who uses a boss katana that has no stage volume, the lead guitarist uses the world's quietest vox ac30 and a proper, but small and quietly played, drum kit. Is it a silent stage? Not by a long shot, but it's still way out of the way of the pa and allows a decent mix up front. 

 

People saying "my gigs are too small for this kind of approach" don't seem to understand that the smaller your gigs are the more this approach helps. If I was playing large festival stages every gig I'd be back on big amps, they're fun and they don't get in the way of a pa on that size stage. In fact I'm waiting on good deals on a few pieces of kit so that I can have an amp again for our summer bike rally circuit. 

[lemmywinks]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

That's only because you have all the gear and you have buy in from the band. You wouldn't get any work in my backwater unless you carted monitors for everyone and then you would have to mix them as well. Why not just admit it's horses for courses?

 

Because you said "the rest of the world that often has no stage as such just a corner of the pub to set up in and play some tunes" which is pretty much the ideal situation for a small band to use IEMs. Cramped stages are where I get the most benefit in terms of being able to hear myself without compromise to FoH.

 

Also why would I carry monitors for everyone? I'm not their dad!

[lemmywinks]

2 hours ago, Jack said:

People saying "my gigs are too small for this kind of approach" don't seem to understand that the smaller your gigs are the more this approach helps. If I was playing large festival stages every gig I'd be back on big amps, they're fun and they don't get in the way of a pa on that size stage. In fact I'm waiting on good deals on a few pieces of kit so that I can have an amp again for our summer bike rally circuit. 

 

This is what I was saying, previously on a small stage I'd be stood right in front of my amp and being tall I struggled to hear myself yet was too loud out front, no fun at all and was solved with a wedge monitor and then IEMs.

Edited May 13, 2023 by lemmywinks

[la bam]

Yes, it's the small pubs etc where I think iems would be great, reasons being:

 

1. No need to squeeze past every punter who stands in the doorways with your amps on load in and load out. Twist, turn, get injured.

2. As i mentioned before - i genuinely believe it's the amps on stage that cause the issue. They're usually firing directionally at the back of someone's legs, facing the wrong way, and trying to do two jobs (be a monitor and add to FOH sound) and not succeeding efficiently for their intended purpose.

 

For anyone who hasn't tried it, and wants to without the expense, forget iems and just try putting everything through your desk using pedals not amps. I'd be amazed if you couldnt just gig like that as the sound will be so much clearer and balanced through your pa.

 

Then add in your iems in time for your own personal mix if needed.

 

To be clear though, I dont use my iems fully in and sealed like some do (I think that's what puts some people off at first) as I do find I like the ambient noise of the crowd as well. But I get a nice mix of my choosing, fully controllable at any time and FOH sound is much better.

 

With a bit of forethought and planning the whole band can be set up and sound checked in 15 mins too.

 

It just depends what you as a band like. For me, my last band was so loud it was awful. It was literally so loud you couldnt hear the guitarist on stage despite him being 10ft away, yet on his own his sound was so loud it could bend peoples legs. It was just a horrible frequency and volume mess.

So it was very hard to play and enjoy and there was hearing damage too.

Iems would have sorted that in a day. I'd have been able to sort my own mix and hear everyone and be happy and let the guy worry about the foh sound. Guitarist could have had his own mix of ear splitting mids and guitar twoddle of just him and it wouldnt have affected anyone.

As it was because of that awful stage sound the band split.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by la bam

[Downunderwonder]

23 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

why would I carry monitors for everyone? I'm not their dad!

Because otherwise without all your gear they would find a bassist with an amp and carry on. Not rocket science.

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

the smaller your gigs are the more this approach helps

I did in fact play through pedals direct to my PA on a very good very small gig with no guitars or vocals. Effectively I was playing through a backline amp with no monitors, not really applicable to the OP.

[lemmywinks]

20 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Because otherwise without all your gear they would find a bassist with an amp and carry on. Not rocket science.

 

I do have an amp, I just choose not to gig with it due to the reasons I mentioned above.

 

 

[warwickhunt]

I am trialling the whole IEM / Monitor / silent stage thing and I have to say that my overarching feeling at the moment is that I am personally not 'enjoying' the playing/listening/interacting experience!    

 

I've heard others say that I'll get used to it etc but I've no sense of the goal being achieved any time soon.  

 

A few considerations for me are that I'm playing in 2 bands (both share the Soundcraft Ui12 desk as it belongs to the guitarist who is in both bands with me) with 2 different drummers both of whom are old school and use acoustic kits (one brings a massive wedge monitor).  Band A is a 3 piece and the guitar is on the far side of the stage with no amps on stage; Band B is a 4 piece with a guitar next to me using a cab + IEM. 

 

However, all of this is secondary to the fact my playing is generally reactive to the whole band/audience experience and I find myself not being as nuanced as I would be with backline on stage and tempering how/what I play.  I think that I'm missing some of the volume or dynamics when I play using IEMs (even though I use molded plugs when gigging with backline) and I can't get comfortable with that.  

 

In short you can say that I am WRONG to not solely use IEMs but for me I have to enjoy the musical experience and I'm slightly isolated from that with IEMs

[Downunderwonder]

4 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

 

I do have an amp, I just choose not to gig with it due to the reasons I mentioned above.

 

 

Your choice would leave you gigless in my backwater same as OP.

[gafbass02]

After years of amazing bass rigs. 
 

im now firmly in the IEM camp. It really is transformative. I no longer own an amp, just a couple of Headrush 112s that sit at home week in week out while I grab my headphones and go. 

[la bam]

11 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I am trialling the whole IEM / Monitor / silent stage thing and I have to say that my overarching feeling at the moment is that I am personally not 'enjoying' the playing/listening/interacting experience!    

 

I've heard others say that I'll get used to it etc but I've no sense of the goal being achieved any time soon.  

 

A few considerations for me are that I'm playing in 2 bands (both share the Soundcraft Ui12 desk as it belongs to the guitarist who is in both bands with me) with 2 different drummers both of whom are old school and use acoustic kits (one brings a massive wedge monitor).  Band A is a 3 piece and the guitar is on the far side of the stage with no amps on stage; Band B is a 4 piece with a guitar next to me using a cab + IEM. 

 

However, all of this is secondary to the fact my playing is generally reactive to the whole band/audience experience and I find myself not being as nuanced as I would be with backline on stage and tempering how/what I play.  I think that I'm missing some of the volume or dynamics when I play using IEMs (even though I use molded plugs when gigging with backline) and I can't get comfortable with that.  

 

In short you can say that I am WRONG to not solely use IEMs but for me I have to enjoy the musical experience and I'm slightly isolated from that with IEMs

 

That was my experience when I first tried them a few years ago and I didnt try again and went back to amps. I got round it this year by slightly popping out the in ears so they stayed in but I could hear the crowd too. Other ways round are just placing a mic towards the crowd and having that on a channel.

 

 

[lemmywinks]

24 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Your choice would leave you gigless in my backwater same as OP.

 

 

I genuinely don't care.

 

My comment was purely to correct the assumption that IEMs are for big stages and "just a corner of the pub to set up in and play some tunes" is actually where I see the most benefit in using them.

[jezzaboy]

Good on the op for telling us that we who still use amps and don`t fancy using iem`s for whatever reason that we are all wrong. 

[jezzaboy]

Double post

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by jezzaboy

[Waddo Soqable]

As someone else mentioned, I very much dislike things poked in my ears, they'd annoy the hell out of me and I'd just pull them out and throw 'em! 

Plus I've found any sort of in 'yer ear headphoney type thing just falls out anyway. 

Not for me, ta 👎

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

There's no greater feeling than standing in front of a great sounding stack (in my case Ashdown ABM600 evo iv & a pair of cabs) dialled in and cranked up, playing a tight groove with a decent drummer, with a breeze on your back from the speaker displacement, and every note being felt through the floor.

[joel406]

1 hour ago, jezzaboy said:

Good on the op for telling us that we who still use amps and don`t fancy using iem`s for whatever reason that we are all wrong. 

You're welcome.

 

Now try to learn from your mistake.

[joel406]

1 minute ago, Waddo Soqable said:

As someone else mentioned, I very much dislike things poked in my ears, they'd annoy the hell out of me and I'd just pull them out and throw 'em! 

Plus I've found any sort of in 'yer ear headphoney type thing just falls out anyway. 

Not for me, ta 👎

Sounds like most 4 year olds I've seen.

[warwickhunt]

1 minute ago, joel406 said:

Sounds like most 4 year olds I've seen.

 

No... ^ THIS ^ sounds like most 4 year olds!   

[joel406]

3 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

There's no greater feeling than standing in front of a great sounding stack (in my case Ashdown ABM600 evo iv & a pair of cabs) dialled in and cranked up, playing a tight groove with a decent drummer, with a breeze on your back from the speaker displacement, and every note being felt through the floor.

Had a gig a couple of months ago on a big stage. Old mix board. No wifi. I brought an amp so's not to have to futz with it. 810 Mesa stack with Mesa 800 watt head. Sounded great for about 3 songs. Missed my IEMS the rest of the show. The 2000 people in the audience didn't care.