Vintage Fenders

[Beedster]

23 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

Apologies, I didn't see that? Where's that confirmed please? Thanks 

Post above ^

[Burns-bass]

37 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Post above ^

Sort of shows how easy it is, eh?

 

Stuff like this makes me sad. 

[Beedster]

Just now, Burns-bass said:

Stuff like this makes me sad. 

 

And me mate. I understand Brian's perhaps not in an easy position, but I'm very keen to learn the identity of the guy doing the faking, after all he could be using feedback on his work from this forum to perfect his work before he starts flooding the market with fakers....

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

 

And me mate. I understand Brian's perhaps not in an easy position, but I'm very keen to learn the identity of the guy doing the faking, after all he could be using feedback on his work from this forum to perfect his work before he starts flooding the market with fakers....

If not considered that.

 

I’ve know people make replicas of all sorts of things, but this seems to be crossing a line a bit. 
 

We should reserve judgment until we know a bit more but the fact that a few people here have been taken in by it shows how accurate it is and how challenging authenticating vintage instruments is and how easily people could be duped. 

 

 

[briansbrew]

2 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

If not considered that.

 

I’ve know people make replicas of all sorts of things, but this seems to be crossing a line a bit. 
 

We should reserve judgment until we know a bit more but the fact that a few people here have been taken in by it shows how accurate it is and how challenging authenticating vintage instruments is and how easily people could be duped. 

 

 

Thats exactly the point I was trying to illustrate Lawrie, I was surprised that a few people thought it was genuine and how vigilant a buyer would need to be...When I was initially offered this all the facts and detailed pics of the instrument were

shown to me and full disclosure of it being a replica, I didnt buy it of course as I was after a genuine Jazz which I eventually got, my concern would be when it is bought by a buyer who could then try to pass it off as a genuine Vintage Bass down the line.

Luckily we have a lot of Vintage experts on this forum who can be relied upon for advice and allay any concerns when purchasing a Vintage instrument

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, briansbrew said:

Thats exactly the point I was trying to illustrate Lawrie, I was surprised that a few people thought it was genuine and how vigilant a buyer would need to be...When I was initially offered this all the facts and detailed pics of the instrument were

shown to me and full disclosure of it being a replica, I didnt buy it of course as I was after a genuine Jazz which I eventually got, my concern would be when it is bought by a buyer who could then try to pass it off as a genuine Vintage Bass down the line.

Luckily we have a lot of Vintage experts on this forum who can be relied upon for advice and allay any concerns when purchasing a Vintage instrument

 

Spot on Brian, it does show two things, firstly how easy it is (or could be), and secondly that people are willing to do it. Be on your guard folks, and remember that vintage guitars = antiques = shit loads of money and shady practices 

[briansbrew]

14 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Spot on Brian, it does show two things, firstly how easy it is (or could be), and secondly that people are willing to do it. Be on your guard folks, and remember that vintage guitars = antiques = shit loads of money and shady practices 

Thanks Chris

[Sparky Mark]

7 hours ago, Beedster said:

Confirmed here....

 

 

Yes,I did see that but wasn't sure what Brian's assertion was based upon? Perhaps a confession from the seller, or more photos not posted here? 

[LukeFRC]

13 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

Yes,I did see that but wasn't sure what Brian's assertion was based upon? Perhaps a confession from the seller, or more photos not posted here? 

The slab board would be the biggest giveaway for me as a non expert 

[ossyrocks]

There are a couple UK guys who can fake guitars to the point where they are indistinguishable. It's not a recent phenomenon either. I was looking at guitars produced by Clive Brown 25 years ago that were absolutely convincing. I owned a vintage 60's Strat "refinished" by Clive Brown which another luthier gave me the willies about and I disposed of it quickly to a Jeweler in Portsmouth. He once pulled out a "58 Strat" to a bunch of assembled dealers (I was present), and they all gawped over it until he revealed it was actually a JV Squire he had completely done a make over on. Richard Henry can tell you many stories of the number of "all original" Fenders which appeared in Music Ground (he used to work there) having passed through the hands of Clive Brown. It's always been tawdry, and the main culprits are still at large. 60's is a minefield, 70's seems much more safe as they haven't moved on to those yet.

[SurroundedByManatees]

Another one for the discussion:

 

Fender  Precision bass 1962 - Matching Headstock Fiesta Red https://reverb.com/item/89351369?utm_source=android-app&utm_medium=android-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=89351369

 

The seller has a great theory about why a '65+ decal would be fitted on a '62 bass... But of course Fender didn't do such funny things. And patent numbers don't match '62 anyway. 

 

An original matching headstock on a 60s precision? I haven't seen them before, but could well exist if someone waved with a bit of money back in the day...

 

[Burns-bass]

7 hours ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

Another one for the discussion:

 

Fender  Precision bass 1962 - Matching Headstock Fiesta Red https://reverb.com/item/89351369?utm_source=android-app&utm_medium=android-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=89351369

 

The seller has a great theory about why a '65+ decal would be fitted on a '62 bass... But of course Fender didn't do such funny things. And patent numbers don't match '62 anyway. 

 

An original matching headstock on a 60s precision? I haven't seen them before, but could well exist if someone waved with a bit of money back in the day...

 

Just nonsense. Absolutely nonsense.

[Reggaebass]

8 hours ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

Another one for the discussion:

 

Fender  Precision bass 1962 - Matching Headstock Fiesta Red https://reverb.com/item/89351369?utm_source=android-app&utm_medium=android-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=89351369

 

The seller has a great theory about why a '65+ decal would be fitted on a '62 bass... But of course Fender didn't do such funny things. And patent numbers don't match '62 anyway. 

 

An original matching headstock on a 60s precision? I haven't seen them before, but could well exist if someone waved with a bit of money back in the day...

 

I saw that last night, I believe there are a few matching headstock precisions in existence but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one up close, first glance it looks like a refinish to me 

[Hellzero]

Utter bullshít bad marketing strategy: The transition logo appeared when the acknowledgement to sell or buy, depending where you are, the company was official, so very late 1964 to very early 1965, not 2 to 3 years before. 🤦🏻

 

Quite expensive for what it's not and I agree with the refinish, Tony.

 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, Reggaebass said:

I saw that last night, I believe there are a few matching headstock precisions in existence but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one up close, first glance it looks like a refinish to me 

Absolutely.

 

Some of the Fender curios come with 100% genuine provenance. Like the slab board ones that are all documented.

 

[Alanko]

A very 1970s Mustang Bass on EBay. Poo brown and insensitively modified with a Carvin pickup up at the neck. The inevitable clicky phase/coil split switch is there too. 
 

No need to worry about fakery here!
 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116563598473?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=kKGvwWPtR3C&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=74jSvcDiTL6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

[Hellzero]

No need to worry about the very optimistic price here too. 🤦🏻

[Stub Mandrel]

I bought an American Vintage II because I know I can't afford a real early 60s bass.

 

I do wish it felt a bit more 'worn in',  although I know I could take the wet and dry paper to it... or spend a big chunk again for custom shop relicing.

 

The existence of such accurate 'copies' with 100% honesty in what they are, from serial number to neck and body markings, defeats most if not all the justifications for creating these 'fakes/forgeries'. Whatever justification people use, it's clear that one or two owners down the line someone will get scammed.

 

Also, people like me with zero expertise will stop buying real vintage.  The only ones I would trust now, without help, belong to a couple of friends who have had them since the 70s or earlier. And even if I had them, would their value appreciate as fakes get more abundant?

[Woodinblack]

6 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

The existence of such accurate 'copies' with 100% honesty in what they are, from serial number to neck and body markings, defeats most if not all the justifications for creating these 'fakes/forgeries'. Whatever justification people use, it's clear that one or two owners down the line someone will get scammed.

Not sure there is a justification for an accurate copy other than scamming people. Even if your justification isn't actually money, your intent is to fool people to thinking that a bass is something it isn't when examined close up

[Beedster]

8 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I bought an American Vintage II because I know I can't afford a real early 60s bass.

 

I do wish it felt a bit more 'worn in',  although I know I could take the wet and dry paper to it... or spend a big chunk again for custom shop relicing.

 

The existence of such accurate 'copies' with 100% honesty in what they are, from serial number to neck and body markings, defeats most if not all the justifications for creating these 'fakes/forgeries'. Whatever justification people use, it's clear that one or two owners down the line someone will get scammed.

 

Also, people like me with zero expertise will stop buying real vintage.  The only ones I would trust now, without help, belong to a couple of friends who have had them since the 70s or earlier. And even if I had them, would their value appreciate as fakes get more abundant?

 

I've lost interest in vintage instruments, I used to love the mojo and feel of a 60's or 70's Precision, but ultimately they're an expensive - and increasingly a risky - luxury, I can make often equal quality instruments from some carefully selected used parts on eBay 👍

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Not sure there is a justification for an accurate copy other than scamming people. Even if your justification isn't actually money, your intent is to fool people to thinking that a bass is something it isn't when examined close up

 

 

If you buy an 'official' reissue there are plenty of markings that make it clear it isn't original.

 

As for fooling people... I doubt any more than a handful of people even know it's anything other than a precision, I bought it for myself not anyone else.

 

 

As for relicing, I was a sceptic until I bought a Flea Jazz. It was the only bass in the shop (Guitar Guitar Birmingham, so plenty of choice) that had the feel and sound I wanted. Wasn't sure about the finish, but now it's my go to instrument if I want/need an easy time of a gig.

Edited Monday at 13:27 by Stub Mandrel

[Steve Browning]

5 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

I've lost interest in vintage instruments, I used to love the mojo and feel of a 60's or 70's Precision, but ultimately they're an expensive - and increasingly a risky - luxury, I can make often equal quality instruments from some carefully selected used parts on eBay 👍

Very much the same here. Over the years I've been fortunate to own some of the 'holy grail' instruments. In the end all the pre-CBS basses have gone because I have better basses from later periods or other makers. It is playability that matters. 

 

Yes I have some 60s and 70s basses, but I have owned them for a long time. 

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

If you buy an 'official' reissue there are plenty of markings that make it clear it isn't original.

 

Obviously - a reissue isn't designed to fake an original, it is designed to look similar, have the same design cues and capture the same asthetic. It doesn't fake a 60s serial number, or other such things.

 

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

As for relicing, I was a sceptic until I bought a Flea Jazz. It was the only bass in the shop (Guitar Guitar Birmingham, so plenty of choice) that had the feel and sound I wanted. Wasn't sure about the finish, but now it's my go to instrument if I want/need an easy time of a gig.

 

Nothing wrong particualy with relicing, if that is what people want, that isn't trying to fool anyone, I mean one flea jazz looks exactly like every other flea jazz, and again, is a copy of a thing, not trying to fake.

[Burns-bass]

4 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

Very much the same here. Over the years I've been fortunate to own some of the 'holy grail' instruments. In the end all the pre-CBS basses have gone because I have better basses from later periods or other makers. It is playability that matters. 

 

Yes I have some 60s and 70s basses, but I have owned them for a long time. 

Same as me, Steve.

 

Couldn’t really afford to be a collector, but I am a player and if it doesn’t sound good or play well then why keep it?