Singing AND playing bass?

[agroupuk]

Hey all,

Another newbie(ish) question for you all.
I wasnt sure where to post this so if its in the worng forum section feel free to move it. Thanks.



Recently I have been going to an acoustic night locally and quite fancy performing something.
I have teamed up with a workmate who is a guitarist (but not a singer)

Anyway - I fancy us trying to workout and play 'Broken Arm' by the Winterpills.

I don’t have any issue tabbing it out reasonably accurately. That’s not the problem.
My issue is I would be singing and, going by previous experience, I find singing and playing really, really hard.
Does anyone have any tips on working on doing both at the same time? Is there anything I should be doing to get better at it other than practicing the song over and over?

(Basically I lose all sense of rhythm when I concentrate on the singing OR my singing becomes quite robotic and follows the way my bassline goes rather than the song lol)

Any help appreciated!

Cheers all,


Edd

[Bilbo]

You learn ot do one. Then learn to do the other. Then learn to do both at the same time.

In a nutshell, you need to work as hard at playing and singing at the same time as you did at doing them seperately. I get the impression that people think that, if you can do both, you can do both at the same time. Its not THAT hard to do but you do have to work at it (bit like the left and right hand on a piano).

[wateroftyne]

Hello!

I don't know the tune concerned, but the only advice I can offer is.... practice!

Keep doing it, and eventually one side of your brain and muscle memory will handle the bass duties, leaving you to concentrate on singing...

[Maxcat]

I dont do a lot of lead vocals nowadays, mainly backing vocals, but I have fronted a few bands in my time in a Phil Lynott stylee (I wish). The only thing that works for me is to know the song inside out on the bass so that I dont have to think about what Im playing, then I can concentrate on the vocals. thats the way I do it anyway. Good luck and practice hard.

[Starvolt]

If you make sure you know the bassline completely solidly, then just play it (along with the CD or whatever if necessary) and try to layer in the singing.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='Maxcat' post='385132' date='Jan 19 2009, 04:35 PM']The only thing that works for me is to know the song inside out on the bass so that I dont have to think about what Im playing, then I can concentrate on the vocals.[/quote]

+1 from me. Still haven't fully got the hang of it on most of our songs (only backing vocals!)

[EBS_freak]

I find the best trick in getting some sort of synergy going between your hands, your voice and your head is slow it all down and figure out where specific parts of the vocal (e.g. individual sylables) are falling in relation to the bass line.

In order to get some idea of how this works, find a track with a repatitive bass line, (I used to use the riffs of say, Day Tripper by the Beatles or Drive My Car by the Beatles as an exercise), get the track and slow it down (real slow) and talk the vocal so that it lies in the correct places in relation to the bass line (use a metronome) and when you are happy, you are on the (what can be a slow) journey of SLOWLY ramping it up to speed. Do this exercise for a few songs and you will feel the independance in your hands and vocals beginning to work together. It is ridiculous and time consuming... but it works.

Hope this helps.

[farmer61]

Practice and if needsbe simplify the bass line.

Saw Slayer once close up and while singing Tom Araya played quite striaght forward bass lines only showboating when there was no vocal, seemed a goodish move to me.

[Galilee]

I've done lead vocals and bass for years, and I still sometimes find my fingers following my mouth or vice versa. Just make sure that you have the bass line completely 'in your fingers' before you start trying to sing over the top. If you seek out cover songs where the singer is also playing an instrument, you'll find these easier as they're generally written that way (Rush songs are usually like this, uncomplicated bass when there's singing going on*).


[size=1]* I'm sure someone'll post something off youtube that proves this wrong....[/size]

Edited January 19, 2009 by Galilee

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='farmer61' post='385167' date='Jan 19 2009, 05:23 PM']Practice and if needsbe simplify the bass line.

Saw Slayer once close up and while singing Tom Araya played quite striaght forward bass lines only showboating when there was no vocal, seemed a goodish move to me.[/quote]

+1

Most of the singing bass players did/do the same. Watch vids of Macca playing his violin bass in the early days and he'll be down by the nut doing something simple when performing live and singing. When he was recording he would be up around the 12th fret doing something more interesting (and usually more melodic).

[WalMan]

+1 to most of the above

I only really do backing vocals (sometimes get caught doubling the vocalist ) but when we start on a new song I [u][i]HAVE[/i][/u] to get the bassline sorted so that it just flows before bothering thinking about the b/vox

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

[quote name='farmer61' post='385167' date='Jan 19 2009, 05:23 PM']Practice and if needsbe simplify the bass line.

Saw Slayer once close up and while singing Tom Araya played quite striaght forward bass lines only showboating when there was no vocal, seemed a goodish move to me.[/quote]
Tom rules

[Eight]

It can't be done - I just tried.

[martthebass]

[quote name='Huge Hands' post='385136' date='Jan 19 2009, 04:39 PM']+1 from me. Still haven't fully got the hang of it on most of our songs (only backing vocals!)[/quote]

+1 again.

Master backing vocals and move forward.

I've never had a problem with backing vocals but lead vocals - hmmmmm.
Never understood why, but some songs I can lead vocal on (e.g Teenage Kicks), but other similar songs (e.g. Anarchy in the UK) my timing goes T*** up.

Edited January 19, 2009 by martthebass

[The Funk]

It's really tought. I tried singing a slightly syncopated backing vocal line over a differently syncopated bass line - total ball-ache. With a bit of practice, I trained my brain to do it properly.

But picking up on Bilbo's post above, I realised that I couldn't sing and play bass at the same time because I can't f***ing sing! I've been playing bass for half my life but I've never put any time into singing and I have no natural aptitude for it. If I want to be able to do both, I'm going to need to practice singing like an actual singer would.

[noelk27]

[quote name='Galilee' post='385169' date='Jan 19 2009, 05:24 PM'](Rush songs are usually like this, uncomplicated bass when there's singing going on*).


[size=1]* I'm sure someone'll post something off youtube that proves this wrong....[/size][/quote]

You mean like the sort of material you'll find on A Farewell To Kings or Hemispheres? But I take your point that, with years of experience, GL has learned to balance the requirements of vocalist, bassist, and keyboard pedalist*.

In my own experience the only approach that I've found that works is to learn the bass part and vocal part separately and thoroughly, and then to combine these - slowly but surely. It really is the most difficult thing that I've ever had to do as a musician, and no matter how many songs I learn to do both I never gets any easier. I've developed little exercises, like singing quarter note triplets while playing quarter notes, or the reverse, which take a little of the pain away - but not much. For someone who has an interesting approach to the combining of vocals and bass playing, I'd recommend listening to Jack Bruce - and then finding a dark room to hide in, as you weep in a quiet, secluded corner.


[size=1]* Not a real word.[/size]

[The Funk]

[quote name='noelk27' post='385516' date='Jan 19 2009, 10:24 PM']For someone who has an interesting approach to the combining of vocals and bass playing, I'd recommend listening to Jack Bruce - and then finding a dark room to hide in, as you weep in a quiet, secluded corner.[/quote]

Actually, the only song I've ever been able to sing and play at the same time is [i]Sunshine Of Your Love[/i], because the bass line and vocal melody are almost identical. Great bassist and great singer though.

[agoulding]

try playing the song while say, watching tv. Learn how to play the song without having to concentrate that much.

Thats how i learned. I had to sing death metal and play bass too. That was pretty difficult but after pushing myself i got somewhere

[noelk27]

[quote name='The Funk' post='385520' date='Jan 19 2009, 10:29 PM']Actually, the only song I've ever been able to sing and play at the same time is [i]Sunshine Of Your Love[/i], because the bass line and vocal melody are almost identical. Great bassist and great singer though.[/quote]

Jack Bruce: The songs Politician and Obsession make interesting, if challenging, studies.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='The Funk' post='385512' date='Jan 19 2009, 10:21 PM']It's really tought. I tried singing a slightly syncopated backing vocal line over a differently syncopated bass line - total ball-ache. With a bit of practice, I trained my brain to do it properly.[/quote]

Bilbo's comparison to playing piano is a good one - it's a lot like learning the syncopation between two hands. Any tricky parts are best learned by slowing them down and going over them repeatedly, starting by just talking the syllables of the vocal. Once you've get the feel of it you'll be able to do it without thinking about it, and if you're playing the song a couple of times a week you won't have an opportunity to forget it.

Don't expect to be successfully ad-libbing your vocal while holding the groove down any time soon though. Maybe when you've had a few thousand hours' practice.

[basswesty]

I have fronted a band for a while now as the bass player. I've done a Level 42 tribute and am now doing a Police tribute, as well as an original band before I get slated for doing the tribute thing.
Strangely enough some of the Police stuff has been more difficult to master where both are concerned, try Driven To Tears for instance.

Over the years I have found that it sort of feels like my brain has split into two, one for singing, one for playing. I still have to practice lots to master new songs but it gets easier as time goes on.

The best advice is PRACTICE. I usually learn the bass till I know it like the back of my hand, then the lyrics in the same vain. Then stick em together. It'll still sound and feel strange at first but it will come. If you are trying to read TAB or the lyrics at the same time this makes it much harder.

If you are doing original stuff just tailor your playing to the vocal line, that's what Sting did.

Good luck and keep PRACTICING.

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='farmer61' post='385167' date='Jan 19 2009, 05:23 PM']Practice and if needsbe simplify the bass line.

Saw Slayer once close up and while singing Tom Araya played quite striaght forward bass lines only showboating when there was no vocal, seemed a goodish move to me.[/quote]

My approach exactly.

Although if I have to use simplified bass lines to get the vocal, once I've got the vocal I work on making the bassline more interesting.

But as everyone else says, practice practice practice. Don't be afraid of making balls ups in practice in front of your mates. Keep making the balls ups there and insist on going over the bits you're shaky on until you're confident.

It doesn't come overnight either.

Edited to add:
But it does come.

Edited January 20, 2009 by HeavyJay

[vmaxblues]

I know exactly where you are at, as I was there last year, the band I am in asked me to start backing vocals, and when I first tried it was disaster. But, I perservered, and that for me is the only key, practise and lots of it, now i sing at every gig without even thinking about it.

However, they are now asking me to sing harmony lines.........back to practise, practise and more practise

It really is the only answer, and it does come, trust me

[Stylon Pilson]

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-AfPa1_vOzg"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-AfPa1_vOzg[/url]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='basswesty' post='385679' date='Jan 20 2009, 07:39 AM']I have fronted a band for a while now as the bass player. I've done a Level 42 tribute and am now doing a Police tribute, as well as an original band before I get slated for doing the tribute thing.
Strangely enough some of the Police stuff has been more difficult to master where both are concerned, try Driven To Tears for instance.

Over the years I have found that it sort of feels like my brain has split into two, one for singing, one for playing. I still have to practice lots to master new songs but it gets easier as time goes on.

The best advice is PRACTICE. I usually learn the bass till I know it like the back of my hand, then the lyrics in the same vain. Then stick em together. It'll still sound and feel strange at first but it will come. If you are trying to read TAB or the lyrics at the same time this makes it much harder.

If you are doing original stuff just tailor your playing to the vocal line, that's what Sting did.

Good luck and keep PRACTICING. [/quote]

Thats interesting - how did you find the Level 42 singing compared to the Police stuff. In my head I am thinking it's two complete different styles. I would have Level 42 down as a more percussive feel which drives throughout the whole song whereas the Police stuff is melody driving? Did you find one easier to do than the other?