cheddatom Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I've heard it said that on some multi-band gigs, the sound and lighting is intentionally improved for the headline act. I'm quite cynical but I also believe that in general, people are nice, so I really don't believe this to be the case. That being said, here are some of my experiences: Playing at Sound Control in Manchester. The sound is OK but the lights are just static - fair enough, but when the headline band go on after us the volume is turned up and the lights change and move in time with the music I can't remember the venue but the same deal, same headliner a couple of weeks later, except this time they kept the house lights on for our set, turned them off for their set, great lights, and a smoke machine Many, many times I've been asked to show up at 4 or 5pm to sound check, only to hang around waiting for the headliners to get their sound perfect, leaving no time for anyone else to check Last night the drum mics were very quiet in the PA for all 3 acts before the headliner came on and the same sound man cranked them up If the headliner has their own sound and/or lighting guy, then I can totally understand why things would improve for them, but that doesn't apply to any of the above. What are your experiences? Does anyone know if this is a real thing? I can only think of those few examples and I've played hundreds of gigs over the years. One of my bandmates thinks it's the done thing to try and make the headliner look/sound better but I reckon he's just paranoid. P.S I thought we'd done this topic a year or so back but I can't find it so sorry if I've duplicated anything 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I'd normally be with you on the "b'stard headliners fecking up the mix for everybody else who only gets a quick line check" but I had the reverse happen at a gig at Christmas at the Underworld We brought out own soundman (a pro, who was formerly in the band some years back) who also knew people in the two opening acts so he did sound for them as well. Leaving just our co-headliners using the in house soundman. they went on last, and by common consent they sounded awful in comparison to everybody else on the bill So it could just be that the headliners have their own soundman? Or they made a special point of being nice to the soundman - I've certainly seen bands sounding dreadful where they've done something to annoy the bloke behind the desk. I've also seen bands ruin their own sound by not listening to the soundman and insisting that amps have to be at certain volumes, etc That said, I was surprised about the Underworld because the in house guys often know then equipment and the venue much better than anybody else. We'd taken a different soundman to a gig in Manchester (Rebellion) the night before and the in house bloke there was superb for all of the bands further down the bill - we supposedly sounded pretty good, but had we not brought our own guy I'm sure we'd have sounded brilliant anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 It has been thus since I attended my first gig in 1968. The headliners are supposed to look and sound better. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 23, 2019 Author Share Posted September 23, 2019 Like I said, if they bring their own sound/lighting people then I get it, and for most "big" shows that's the case, but I'm talking about small 100-500 capacity multi-band originals gigs where the same people do sound and lights all night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 33 minutes ago, cheddatom said: I've heard it said that on some multi-band gigs, the sound and lighting is intentionally improved for the headline act. That's pretty much the rule isn't it? The headliners may have paid the price of a house to cover the cost of a top-notch lighting rig and it's part of their show. If you were supporting Motorhead, would you have expected to get the bomber for your act? Even if it's the venue's own rig, they probably see it as part of the whole show building to a climax and it's in their interests to make the headliners stand out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 23, 2019 Author Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said: ...Even if it's the venue's own rig, they probably see it as part of the whole show building to a climax and it's in their interests to make the headliners stand out. How does it benefit the venue at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I've got a kind of reverse one too. We turned up on time for soundcheck. Reasonably well known band is not there. Promoter rings them. They're running late will not make soundcheck. Can they use our drums and bass amp. We soundcheck. It sounds great. They turn up 20 minutes before going on during the last 5 minutes of our set. They spend the 15 minute break reconfiguring the kit, including removing a tom and tuning it up to the drummers preferred slack skinned style. They leave the drum mics where they were out of position. The bass player just sets my amp flat. It sounds OK. The drums sound pretty horrible despite the guy on the desks best efforts. We support them again at another venue. Exactly the same thing happens. Get told by the promoter they don't want to play with us again due to the drums sounding so bad.... to be fair I don't think I've ever had significantly worse sound when being the support band. We always turned up on time and were polite and fuss free even when having to wait around and only getting a line check. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I don't think you're paranoid man, it happens around here as well. Some headliner acts have a deal with the management about it and from a commercial point of view it makes sense for them to give that extra push to the headlining band so it feels "WOW" when they get on stage. Usually what happens is this: - Opening acts use different gear on stage (amps, drums, mics etc). - Opening acts sometimes use a different main mixer as well. - Headliners always have their own sound, stage and lights guys. This makes HUGE difference. So when you were performing lights were on auto pilot and when headliner went on their guy worked his donkey off to put out a great light show + he knows bands set list inside out and it's pre-planned etc. Sound guy will always make the biggest difference. He'll just push it out as loud as possible with the best possible live mix. Even for small acts, having a soundguy in your team makes day/night difference. So basically, this is how it works at the moment. It doesn't happen everywhere and to the same extent so you might end up with great performance and PA sound but it is somewhat expected. I know it's not fair and kinda terrible to young artists starting out on stage etc, but it's just the way things are I guess. I still think its OK, as you get to perform on sold out gigs in front of a lot of people and if your music rocks, you'll get your spotlight and be a headliner one day too so maybe even get a change of perspective. Another aspect, which is very debatable is that headlining bands (=well known bands playing for ages together) are usually made up of very experienced and good musicians, with great gear and playing technique. Maybe the PA was overall the same, the sound was just better and the band played better too... There are just too many factors I guess - so controversial topic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, cheddatom said: Like I said, if they bring their own sound/lighting people then I get it, and for most "big" shows that's the case, but I'm talking about small 100-500 capacity multi-band originals gigs where the same people do sound and lights all night that was the size'd venue we were playing, only a couple of hundred punters each night in (possibly less than) 500 capacity clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 In all areas of showbiz, top billing carries prestige - some headliners will be a genuine cut above and will simply be better prepared in all aspects, but some headliners are definately guilty of sabotaging their support in order to make themselves look better by comparison. Promoters and managers will usually pander to the egomanic that is laying the golden egg without exception or apology. Navigating the behind the scenes politics can be a bit tricky for support acts in situations where there are rock star divas in bands further up the billing(or frustrated rock star divas slumming it as in house engineers), best you can do in these situations is be polite and professional, play like it's the last gig you'll ever do and make careful note of the individuals you do/don't want to be working with in future. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oopsdabassist Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Saw Stonebroken supporting Cheap Trick a couple of years back at the O2 Forum Kentish Town, they sounded excellent, clear and loud, you could hear every word being sung and feel every bass note. When Cheap Trick came on I reckon the sound engineer just maxxed everything and ran for the hills!! Without doubt the worst show I have ever watched, even with my earplugs in it was painful, I had no idea what songs were being played, I went outside about halfway through and I swear there were more people out there. Only stayed till the end cos my mate is a Cheap Trick fanboi and we had travelled together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 56 minutes ago, cheddatom said: How does it benefit the venue at all? Because the whole thing is a 'show' from a punters point of view. A show that builds to a climax is a more memorable and rewarding experience. Ask anyone headliner who has been upstaged by the previous band. (e.g. UFO/Slade) If you go to see the fireworks, do you want the bangs and flashes to be the same right through or to save the best for last? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 hour ago, mikel said: It has been thus since I attended my first gig in 1968. The headliners are supposed to look and sound better. ^What he said^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I’ve seen it happen more with vocals than anything. I know some people prefer the vocals low (we prefer ours to not only be heard but to be understood) but I’ve seen some support bands where the vocals couldn’t be heard at all. Now irrespective of main/support band how can anyone working a sound desk not for one be aware of it, and secondly then try and sort it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Saw a multi band thingy in the back garden of The Brasenose during Cropredy festival a few years back. Spent some time hanging out with the sound guy (I was trying to find out how you got on the bill at The Brasenose during the festival): he did really well for everyone and was clearly trying to make everyone sound good, but for the main band he had everything worked out. He'd engineered for them before, and had pre-planned motorised settings on his desk for every song, including variations in sound for choruses, solos, etc. etc. and as he knew their set he rode the desk and paid strict attention throughout. Apparently he worked with them at a lot of their gigs. It wasn't that the sound was bad at all for the other bands, it was just much much better for the main act (if that makes sense). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreadBin Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Good post @phil.c60 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger2611 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 I have a reverse situation as well, a couple of years back we supported a former chart topping band from the 80's at The Soundhouse in Leicester, a venue apparently well known for being a pain to get a good sound in, a mate of mine had said "make sure you let the in house sound guy do your sound" we duly did and given the reaction from the crowd it was a good thing, the main band used their own sound guy who appeared to ignore any advice given by the venue's sound man, the result was that they were possibly the worst sounding headline band I have ever heard! A win for us as a support act! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonse Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 41 minutes ago, Roger2611 said: I have a reverse situation as well, a couple of years back we supported a former chart topping band from the 80's at The Soundhouse in Leicester, a venue apparently well known for being a pain to get a good sound in, a mate of mine had said "make sure you let the in house sound guy do your sound" we duly did and given the reaction from the crowd it was a good thing, the main band used their own sound guy who appeared to ignore any advice given by the venue's sound man, the result was that they were possibly the worst sounding headline band I have ever heard! A win for us as a support act! The Soundhouse is okay, I think they always crank it too loud for the size of the venue though. Supported a female - fronted band a while ago and her screams and yelps were just ear piercingly awful - way too loud and too much treble. It's cool that they have their own lighting guy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertbass Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Always has been and always will be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 20 hours ago, mikel said: It has been thus since I attended my first gig in 1968. The headliners are supposed to look and sound better. Maybe so, but what I've never understood about this is why would promoters and venues let it happen? Their agenda should be to put on the best show for the audience. As a headline band you'd have to have very little self belief and a massive ego to stipulate static lights and poor sound for any of the support bands. I've been lucky enough to play some reputable venues with excellent house engineers so never actually experienced this myself, but I see it as a punter occasionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 20 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said: Because the whole thing is a 'show' from a punters point of view. A show that builds to a climax is a more memorable and rewarding experience. Ask anyone headliner who has been upstaged by the previous band. (e.g. UFO/Slade) If you go to see the fireworks, do you want the bangs and flashes to be the same right through or to save the best for last? I always thought that as most of the audience are there (or should be) to see the headline act, then they would see it as a climax anyway. I'm not talking pyros but lights and sound should be decent all night, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 18 hours ago, phil.c60 said: Saw a multi band thingy in the back garden of The Brasenose during Cropredy festival a few years back. Spent some time hanging out with the sound guy (I was trying to find out how you got on the bill at The Brasenose during the festival): he did really well for everyone and was clearly trying to make everyone sound good, but for the main band he had everything worked out. He'd engineered for them before, and had pre-planned motorised settings on his desk for every song, including variations in sound for choruses, solos, etc. etc. and as he knew their set he rode the desk and paid strict attention throughout. Apparently he worked with them at a lot of their gigs. It wasn't that the sound was bad at all for the other bands, it was just much much better for the main act (if that makes sense). I get that, it's a similar situation to the touring band who take their own sound engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 I've experienced the 'static lighting that suddenly develops the ability to move for the headline act' on a number of occasions. However I don't think it's necessarily a policy of the venue or the headline act. Sometimes the headline act bring their own lighting guy and a separate sound guy and you as support have one bloke supplied by the venue to do sound and lights, so he doesn't have much time to come up with an off the cuff light show. Other times, you'll have a dedicated lighting engineer for all bands on the bill, who simply can't be arsed to do anything interesting until the headline set. As a stage manager/sound crew I've worked with lots of lighting engineers and none of them have ever told me stories of being instructed to make the main band look better at the expense of the support acts. On the handful of occasions where we've played venues where we know the lighting crew, we get a better light show than the headline act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 If a promoter said to me "Would you like us to do terrible sound and lights for the support acts before you come on?" I'd say no, and I'm pretty sure that's the case for 99% of other musicians, so I just wondered where this practise comes from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, cheddatom said: If a promoter said to me "Would you like us to do terrible sound and lights for the support acts before you come on?" I'd say no, and I'm pretty sure that's the case for 99% of other musicians, so I just wondered where this practise comes from I honestly think it's mostly that light engineers can't be arsed until the big boys come out to play. Where you have one person doing sound and lights, then he or she is more likely to focus on getting the sound right via the support bands and don;t have time to play with lights, but they make an effort for the main act - because they're the main act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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