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Woodinblack

What does 'standards' actually mean for songs

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32 minutes ago, Flat Al said:

Off-topic response to ahpook: many years ago I attended many BSI meetings and was once told that the BSI had a "British Standard Turd".   It was essentially a fluffy ball/pompom thing on a string.   It was used to test whether or not WC/cistern combinations passed the current BS for toilets.   The string was necessary to retrieve the "turd" after the flush test was over.

Brilliant, although you can see why you'd need one....BS1125:1987: Specification for WC flushing cisterns (including dual flush cisterns and flush pipes), perhaps ?  - it does include the specifications of the 'test equipment'.

Makes you wonder how they decided what size and weight to use :)

 

Edited by ahpook

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21 minutes ago, ahpook said:

 

Makes you wonder how they decided what size and weight to use :)

 

I think the loos in our house were made using the wrong standard. :facepalm:

Edited by leftybassman392
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18 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I guess. I had never heard it before and actually, it was hard finding a version of it on youtube or other streaming services, so I wasn't sure it was the right one. Luckily all these sort of things are pretty easy but makes me realise the term standard is fairly subjective.

It was #5 on the US Billboard Top 100 in this version, and #11 in the original one, roughly 50 years ago. So a more recent standard by many people's reckoning ;^}. I had to nail down the Buddy Rich big band arrangement a few years ago and found quite a few YouTube vids of that arrangement (mostly high school bands), and plenty more like the Jaco one.

 

Here's the one that went to #5:

 

And Will Lee playing it with the Buddy Rich legacy band, with Phil Collins on drums:

 

 

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On 14/11/2018 at 15:13, bassace said:

There’s also a British Standard finger.

For some reason, this sprang immediately to mind...

british standard finger.jpg

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On 14/11/2018 at 13:30, ahpook said:

Brilliant, although you can see why you'd need one....BS1125:1987: Specification for WC flushing cisterns (including dual flush cisterns and flush pipes), perhaps ?  - it does include the specifications of the 'test equipment'.

Makes you wonder how they decided what size and weight to use :)

 

Would that be the Ideal-Standard?

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Standards are an informal list of tunes that Jazz musicians are expected to know and to be able to play in all keys. I know players who know up to 1,000 tunes. I know three: So What, Impressions and Lush Life (that is an in joke for Jazz musicians). 

I play a regular weekly gig with visiting artists and some bring charts whilst others call tunes and expect you to know them. I have an ireal book so can pretty much pull out a chart for anything in any key but, without it, I would be screwed. It is called 'the Real Book of Shame'. 

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On November 13, 2018 at 09:18, Woodinblack said:

To me there are standards, depending on where you are: mustang sally, mr brightside, sex on fire if you play in pubs, Burn, paranoid, rock'n'roll if you do classic rock, etc. Is it just that at 53 I am just not old enough to know the right 'standards'?

It sounds to me like he means most of the tunes will fall into the same or similar chord progressions or patterns. Not necessarily the older standards (as another poster mentioned, Autumn Leaves and the like) but modern pop tunes that follow folk-rock or rock/pop patterns, and therefore should be easy to pick up.

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I think, with the exception of the backwaters of jazz, that 'Standard' is a moveable feast: one man's Standard being another Man's WTF. In the world of general consumption, it's entirely understandable how these things move as popularity of music changes, and I'm sure any musical lessons about structure and theory can be learned from songs of a similar structure from any era.

One startling illustration of how things move on is when our BL got some gigs doing his solo acoustic guitar/singing schtick in a number of old peoples homes. I'd imagined he'd have to learn some much older tunes, but he told me the things which went down best were Beatles and Stones/60s stuff... 😕 😀

Edited by Muzz
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Just to qualify the term, first used in 1937, to refer to...

A tune or song of established popularity, esp. in Jazz.

From the OED.

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On 13/11/2018 at 14:18, Woodinblack said:

* As a side note - Son of a Preacher man by Dusty Springfield - was the bass player charging by the note or what? I was quite surprised on that one.

Went to look on face tube and you're damn right - look at this! Mind you, don't look into his eyes, I don't know who is is but the word 'quiet killer' springs to mind! :)

 

 

 

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On 13/11/2018 at 17:42, martthebass said:

Ditto, also been caught by that one.  I was expecting, All Right Now, Wishing Well, Mustang, Brown Sugar, You Really Got Me etc, etc, etc......

What I got was a list of obscure album tracks from Molly Hatchet, April Wine, Iron Maiden, Pat Travers, MSG.........not a good night.

Our keyboard player has a terrible habit of picking obscure songs by famous people. The tourists would turn up expecting a dance and a sing song and end up playing Name that Tune.

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For me standards are the show tunes of the 20s 30s 40s that became the repertoire jazz musicians used , to apply it to current cover band rep doesn't make much sense to me 

Re. Preacher man Tommy Cogbill goes nuts on that, he started as a jazz guitarist , it's interesting how much his approach varies, from just laying it down on Aretha's Chain of Fools to soloing with a plectrum over the choruses of Elvis's I'm moving on

Edited by spencer.b

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Reading through the posts here it would appear that standards mean different things to different people. The jazzers have their standards compiled through constant usage and the rockers are starting to build up their own canon. Indeed, among the various efforts to come up with a definitive definition of jazz I’d sidestep the desperate attempts to nail the ‘improvisation’ thing but rather settle on ‘ a group of musicians playing a repertoire of tunes that are generally regarded as jazz tunes’ or something like that.

Looking through the Great American Songbook there are plenty of tunes I’d hate to have to play on a jazz gig. As there are several jazz standards that aren’t on the list at all, eg the bebop, modal, etc stuff, most of which doesn’t have lyrics as does the GAS.

Just my take.

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I think we may be looking at 'Standard' vs 'standard'.

There are tunes which are standard (small 'S') in many different circles; Brown Eyed Girl in function bands, Hoochie Coochie Man in the blues, Radar Love in classic rock, etc.

'Standards' (big 'S') however are related to jazz. As @Dad3353 says, The Real Book is the judge. There are many tunes which could be standard, but if a band is playing (S)tandards those tunes will be found in The Real Book. Fake books came about when those tunes were small 'S' standard, so that players could 'fake' knowing the song, and The Real Book was an officiation of those, with all the copyright dealt with. Which is which depends to a degree on the context, but a tune being standard is different to being A standard. As always, if in doubt, ask. If they explain, you're all sorted- if they try to make you feel small for asking, factor that into the equation of whether you want to be playing with them in the first place.

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On 21/11/2018 at 15:55, Muzz said:

I'd imagined he'd have to learn some much older tunes, but he told me the things which went down best were Beatles and Stones/60s stuff... 😕 😀

I guess that's kinda understandable - someone who would have been 26 and in the prime of life in 1966 would now be 80 years old.

Hm, there's a depressing thought...

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