Thinking of quitting the band....volume issues.

[chris_b]

I'm tempted to say that, like there's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing, there's no such thing as too loud - just inappropriate gear.

If your amp can't be heard, get a bigger amp and/or cab. If you can't hear your vocals, get monitors or IEM's. If your ears are ringing, get custom earplugs. You can't say 350 watts [i]should[/i] be OK. Either it is or it isn't. If it isn't you need more.

Of course you could always fire the loud ones or leave. I been in many bands trying to rein in bloody guitarists by not joining in the volume wars. It usually had no effect other than I was told that the audience couldn't hear the bass. I was always playing in good bands with good players and didn't want to leave so I joined up and went as loud.

The bottom line is, if the gig tells you you're too loud, you're too loud. If they don't then you're not. You might want to play at a quieter level, but that's a different issue. Leaving is always an option but IMO there would have to be another, more important, reason other than being "too loud" for me to leave a band.

[Coilte]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1472153759' post='3118987']
Get yourself a valve amp
[/quote]

...and give the guitarists an excuse to up their volume to compensate...?

I don't think any gear change is required. What does need to change... (downwards...) is the volume knob on said gear.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Coilte

[MacDaddy]

Just a post to emphasize the importance of well fitting earplugs. If your ear plugs don't fit properly, then they are not doing their job properly.
Ear canals can vary in size, and ear plugs come in different sizes.
I use Elacin Frosted Greys, as the regular ER20s are too big for my ears and therefore very uncomfortable.
I used the wax ones (mentioned in the OP) many years ago, but found them uncomfortable, and compromising the sound too much.

[Coilte]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1472201586' post='3119324']
Just a post to emphasize the importance of well fitting earplugs. If your ear plugs don't fit properly, then they are not doing their job properly.
Ear canals can vary in size, and ear plugs come in different sizes.
I use Elacin Frosted Greys, as the regular ER20s are too big for my ears and therefore very uncomfortable.
I used the wax ones (mentioned in the OP) many years ago, but found them uncomfortable, and compromising the sound too much.
[/quote]

Originally I was using the special musician's earplugs. These were 15's and I found them ...not uncomfortable..but inadequate. I started using wax plugs for a while, and am now after ordering new musician's plugs (27db), as the filters on the other ones, are not interchangable.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Coilte

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1472169052' post='3119160']

[b]I don't really know what a rubbish venue is. [/b]There are gigs that aren't that great , bad logistics and unappreciative crowds. But that goes with job.

[/quote]

Then come to Camden, my friend...

[gareth]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1472201501' post='3119323']


...and give the guitarists an excuse to up their volume to compensate...?

I don't think any gear change is required. What does need to change... (downwards...) is the volume knob on said gear.
[/quote]i was in the exact same position as you some 15 years ago

Guitar band drums, bass, singer and two guitarists

Both guitarists had 100 watt messa boogie dual rectifier 4x12 rigs

I had 4x10 and 1x15 cabs with a trace 300 watt head.

On full power I could not compete

The solution?

I got a trace V6 giving me 400 watts of full valve power.

This enabled me to be heard/compete

Of course I had to wear proper moulded earplugs bought from an audiologist

Try it!

[JTUK]

Typically, if two gtrs have 412's, then you have to know why they are using them. If they can't tell you .... that is all you need to know.

You can tell a hell of a lot by the gear they bring...

[KevB]

I'm just about the only band member that musically doesn't go through the PA (OK we don't put all the drum kit through either, just some bass drum) and we seem to control our overall vol fairly well, though it's probably me that says 'we're a bit loud' at soundcheck and we usually are. We've been asked to turn down just once since I joined the band. The guitarist doesnt have overly loud onstage vol at all, puts it through PA to do the work. I had to tell him to put the level of his guitar up a bit in the monitors as I was struggling to hear him direct from his backline over the noisemeister drummist. Sounds fine out front though which is what really matters. We are playing classic rock too which naturally requires a certain degree of assault on the ears. Its as much about judging the room and audience and tailoring it from there.

[Coilte]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1472203251' post='3119355']
i was in the exact same position as you some 15 years ago

Guitar band drums, bass, singer and two guitarists

Both guitarists had 100 watt messa boogie dual rectifier 4x12 rigs

I had 4x10 and 1x15 cabs with a trace 300 watt head.

On full power I could not compete

The solution?

I got a trace V6 giving me 400 watts of full valve power.

This enabled me to be heard/compete

Of course I had to wear proper moulded earplugs bought from an audiologist

Try it!
[/quote]


Fair enough. I'll keep all that in mind.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1472136650' post='3118811']
....I am absolutely determined to follow through on leaving.....
[/quote]

Surely just leaving would be enough, no need to sh*t yourself as well.

[TimR]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1472201501' post='3119323']


...and give the guitarists an excuse to up their volume to compensate...?

I don't think any gear change is required. What does need to change... (downwards...) is the volume knob on said gear.
[/quote]

I think your issue is TWO guitarists. I've been in a similar situation where finding a tone that fits in the mix is practically impossible because both guitarists are using 'Their sound' which is the sound that they like when playing solo in their bedroom/practice space. This leads to volume wars where everyone just tries to turn up in an effort to be heard over everyone else.

As mentioned above, it may be an idea to alter the position of their amps so that they're angled at their ears which will reduce the volume.

The other thing you will have to do is get them to cut some frequencies for 'Their tone' so that they compromise and have a 'Band tone', which has to be different for each guitar and has to leave a big frequency gap in the lower mids to allow the definition of your bass to be heard. You will also have to compromise as well. Bass is not just bass there are other just as important frequencies. You will need rehearsal time specifically for this excercise.

I promise you the time spent doing this will improve your band 200%.

.

Edited August 26, 2016 by TimR

[cheddatom]

It's just so accepted in a lot of pubs and venues for the sound to be too loud. This is doing permanent damage to the hearing of everyone there not wearing ear plugs. We don't take this issue seriously enough IMO

[Dave Vader]

In defence of guitarists,
I play guitar in lots of bands, and I always take my old 15w Wem Dominator, it never goes above three, and it seems surprisingly loud to me anywhere above 1.
I will always turn down when asked, and know just how helpful a horrid ugly tinny sound can be once everything else slots in underneath.
Similarly, my bass sounds utterly dreadful solo but sits very nicely in the mix.

[TimR]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1472211761' post='3119470']
In defence of guitarists,
I play guitar in lots of bands, and I always take my old 15w Wem Dominator, it never goes above three, and it seems surprisingly loud to me anywhere above 1.
I will always turn down when asked, and know just how helpful a horrid ugly tinny sound can be once everything else slots in underneath.
Similarly, my bass sounds utterly dreadful solo but sits very nicely in the mix.
[/quote]

When a guitarist sees the light it's a pretty good moment.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1472208989' post='3119439']
I think your issue is TWO guitarists. I've been in a similar situation where finding a tone that fits in the mix is practically impossible because both guitarists are using 'Their sound' which is the sound that they like when playing solo in their bedroom/practice space. This leads to volume wars where everyone just tries to turn up in an effort to be heard over everyone else.
[/quote]

+1

I much prefer to play in a 1-guitar band, whether or not that's me on the guitar. The single guitar naturally has its own space without having to compete with another one very much like it. Guitar, bass, drums - sorted.

Keys? A whole other thread...

[gareth]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1472203251' post='3119355']
i was in the exact same position as you some 15 years ago

Guitar band drums, bass, singer and two guitarists

Both guitarists had 100 watt messa boogie dual rectifier 4x12 rigs

I had 4x10 and 1x15 cabs with a trace 300 watt head.

On full power I could not compete

The solution?

I got a trace V6 giving me 400 watts of full valve power.

This enabled me to be heard/compete

Of course I had to wear proper moulded earplugs bought from an audiologist

Try it!
[/quote]

Said rig in operation

http://youtu.be/eNIiZ0Tck-M

[Coilte]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1472233859' post='3119732']
Said rig in operation[/quote]

Nice...but...unless it's just how the camera mike picked things up.... I can just barely hear the vocalist. So, no doubt the bassist can be heard , but the vocals can not.

[TimR]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1472239479' post='3119793']


Nice...but...unless it's just how the camera mike picked things up.... I can just barely hear the vocalist. So, no doubt the bassist can be heard , but the vocals can not.
[/quote]

The camera is behind the PA speakers.

[luckydog]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1472239479' post='3119793']
Nice...but...unless it's just how the camera mike picked things up.... I can just barely hear the vocalist. So, no doubt the bassist can be heard , but the vocals can not.
[/quote]

Mumma..............even the cymbals don't cut !

I'd absolutely have nothing to do with that !

LD

Edited August 26, 2016 by luckydog

[Coilte]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1472239672' post='3119796']
The camera is behind the PA speakers.
[/quote]

True, but as luckydog says...it's not behind the cymbals. They're barley audible too. All I can hear is guitar and bass.

You solve one problem (the bass) and create more.

@ gareth....Sorry, it's not my intention to be mean. Just saying it as I see/hear it.

[TimR]

I can hear cymbals perfectly. What are you listening on.

[gareth]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1472247742' post='3119872']


True, but as luckydog says...it's not behind the cymbals. They're barley audible too. All I can hear is guitar and bass.

You solve one problem (the bass) and create more.

@ gareth....Sorry, it's not my intention to be mean. Just saying it as I see/hear it.
[/quote]thats ok

I think the "camera" was infact a phone and bearing in mind this was recorded 10+ years ago, certainly not hi fi!

[TimR]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1472249121' post='3119888']
thats ok

I think the "camera" was infact a phone and bearing in mind this was recorded 10+ years ago, certainly not hi fi!
[/quote]

That'll be why it sounds ok on my phone speakers then.

[Twincam]

Wasn't the high volume levels the reason for all the smack Cream were on?
You know to dull the pain lol.

I've never heard a band where the bassist was to loud, compared to the rest of the band that is.
But I have heard loads of bands the vocals and bassist have been drowned out by the guitar(s) or the drums have been too much.
There's no way your average guitar player needs more than 30w. In fact every great sounding guitar player ive heard (not including big stage gigs etc) has had modest amps.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1472268548' post='3119942']
every great sounding guitar player ive heard (not including big stage gigs etc) has had modest amps.
[/quote]

The amps themselves are not the problem...just how they are used.