Cameronj279 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 All I can really say to this is that I wouldn't be prepared to risk my hearing for the sake of someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72deluxe Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 I think drTStingray is right in point 3 that other musicians have a strange perception of music. This one guitarist I know always skips to the solo in a song and will listen to just that, and will listen to just guitar in a song. I have had to educate him on listening to the rest of the song and bass sound. Oddly, if you listen to something "guitary" like Steve Vai's Passion & Warfare, the best parts of that album are NOT the guitar but are instead the intricate backing parts and harmonies behind the guitar. I think he needs time to sit and learn how to "listen" to music. As he is accustomed to listening to exclusively the guitar sound, he does point 2, where he has far too much treble IMHO. He thinks it is because "bass players don't like treble" but I can confirm that doing a pop through a HF horn produces enough treble! It leads me to think his hearing is rather suspect. As he is not used to hearing his sound get lost in a mix, he turns up to compensate. I know that if I put plugs in, everything will be quieter (including me) but you just learn to get used to that lower volume and learn to listen to yourself in a muffled way. I will see if I can find someone they both respect to give opinions on volume next practice, else I'll leave before deafness engulfs us all. The tilt-back guitar stand is a good idea. Aim the sound-cannon at his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 72deluxe: get some Elacin ER20 earplugs. £8 from Amazon. They just reduce the volume and the relative frequencies stay the same. When I tried them in my garden Incould still hear the birds and thought they weren't working. Until I took them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1436957056' post='2822279'] Got a tilt back stand, pointed his combo at his head...he turned down straight away... [/quote] I did this years ago for a mate's band when they asked me to turn up to a rehearsal as the "respected sound engineer" and try and work out why they were getting complaints from venues and not being re-booked. Halfway through the next track he slammed his guitar down and stormed off. "I'm not playing with it like that - it is giving me a headache!" "Now you know how your punters feel" is all I had to say..... Edited July 15, 2015 by Huge Hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I had that problem with a loud drummer even though I was wearing over the counter earplugs. I now have some custom moulded ones and that seems to have got the volume under control from my place on the stage. The band I play most gigs with are far too loud on stage and I've given up trying to get them to turn down so now I just continue to take steps to protect my hearing. They can go deaf if they want to. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jecklin Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Just reading this thread is making my ears hurt! I was at a rehearsal space not so long ago and one of the bands there was probably in the same SPL region the op is playing in. The people that ran the space had to interrupt their session to tell them to turn down. A row ensued. I understand you may have relationships to protect with the guys in the band, but in all honesty I can't see a real resolve on the horizon. In essence the drummer is. Going to have to reappraise his entire approach to his instrument. Get him to play solo and drop his volume to where he can only just hear himself. Only then will you know whether that is quiet enough. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr zed Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I thought this was going to be about Paul Geary when I read the thread title - doh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 [quote name='Jecklin' timestamp='1436960776' post='2822321'] I was at a rehearsal space not so long ago and one of the bands there was probably in the same SPL region the op is playing in. The people that ran the space had to interrupt their session to tell them to turn down. A row ensued. [/quote] I just can't figure out why bands do this. Though they haven't been asked to turn down yet, I've had bands so loud in adjoining room in current rehearsal rooms we use that it's been difficult to concentrate on what I'm doing in my own playing. I think som eof them do it because they can't play that loud at home and just use it to let off steam. I don't know how it's improving the overrall music product they are trying to promote though. Mostly it just seems to advertise to the rooms on either side what their deficiencies are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1436949639' post='2822209'] [/quote] Is this a subtle advert for your new Pink Floyd tribute then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Have you not had any feedback from venues and /or punters..? If not I find that strange. Also, drums number one enemy is the snare in my opinion and if it is that loud, it is likely to overbalance the kit. I'd record the gig or rehearsal and see if the drums are too loud. They may well be, but if the mix is ok-ish, then the other players are likely matching him as well ..and that is not good either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72deluxe Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) We've not had bookings yet - it has only been practices for a few months (once a month to make it easy.... or lazy, depending on your point of view). The guitarist has parts to learn; the bass parts are not hard. I play in a few bands and they all rehearse very irregularly; this suits me at the moment as it is entirely a hobby and I don't want noise-induced-hearing-loss. Thankfully the music is instrumental and obscure so I am wondering when/where/if we'll get any bookings - suggestions welcome! I have recorded the rehearsals but with three microphones and DI from guitar and bass so the overall mix at the end is not indicative of the volume/SPL in the room. You can have a listen if you want! The other bands I play in have drummers in varying degrees of volume/deafness. One causes so much hihat wash that the second song causes instant right-ear deafness (I am on the left) hence the purchase of the thickest earplugs I could possibly get, and distancing myself from him as far as possible. He too, is a deaf drummer. Edited July 15, 2015 by 72deluxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) The thickest earplugs may not be the best. As has been suggested, the ER20s (some here : [url="http://www.allearplugs.com/earplug-suppliers/acs-advanced-communication-solutions/etymotic-er20-high-fidelity-earplugs-white.aspx"]http://www.allearplu...lugs-white.aspx[/url]) will allow you to hear what's going on at a reduced volume, but the best ones are the custom fit ones. I've got tinnitus thanks to idiot drummers and guitarists (compounded by my too-casual approach to the dangers of consistent high SPLs), and it's no joke. Edited July 15, 2015 by Muzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebasshead Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) <p>[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436791622' post='2820750']<br /> He was too <img alt=" " class="bbc_emoticon" src="http://basschat.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png" /><br /> <br /> More seriously it is easy to test your hearing on-line. All you need is a decent st of headphones. I do this about every six months, so far so good. Anyone in a band needs to do this regularly because you know sooner or later your hearing is going to be affected.<br /> <br /> Get your drummer to take the test, at least then you'll know what you are dealing with. It's not unreasonable to protect your hearing. At least you still can go to another band, if your hearing is destroyed you won't ever play again.<br /> <br /> Here's the test <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing/check-your-hearing/take-the-check.aspx" rel="nofollow external" title="External link">http://www.actiononh...-the-check.aspx</a><br /> <br /> It just took me five minutes to complete,<br /> <br /> If everything is muffled your guitarist is using the wrong ear defenders, get ones especially made for musicians and not the industrial protection ones.<br /> [/quote]<br /> [quote name='sarah thomas' timestamp='1436793769' post='2820775']<br /> Just tried the hearing test Phil Starr put a link to <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing/check-your-hearing/take-the-check.aspx" rel="nofollow external" title="External link">http://www.actiononh...-the-check.aspx</a> and thought my headphones were broken at first. The test checks one ear and then the other. Despite my idiocy, my hearing seems to be okay for my age. Thanks Phil.<br /> [/quote]</p> I love the idea of that test and I know they acknowledge its not a substitute for a proper test with an audiologist <b>but </b>I have to say I personally don't think it's even close. A bit of background first - in August 2011 after a particularly loud rehearsal I developed tinnitus. ;Even though I knew there was nothing that could be done about it I still went to the docs and was surprised to be referred to hospital for a hearing test under a consultant and an MRI scan. The scan showed nothing to worry about (but I was quite pleased at how thorough my doc was to use it to rule out anything else) and the consultant confirmed I have the classic Noise Induced Hearing Loss from loud music. It mostly affects how clearly I hear speech which I do struggle with sometimes. He couldn't say how much the tinnitus was masking those same frequencies accentuating the problem because of course they can't measure what is being generated inside my head. He offered me hearing aids which I declined as it's not that bad yet, but I will revisit if it ever became an issue. So that should highlight the approximate state of my hearing to give some context, because I took the test in the link today, entered my gender and birth year and completed the test on a decent pair of headphones at a comfortable volume as recommended (approximately at the volume I hear a conversation at). At the end it said 'Your Hearing Check result suggests that your hearing is in the normal range.' even though I have had the tests at hospital and been offered hearing aids and live with tinnitus. I figured the reason it asks for your birth year is so it can assess your results in the context of what your hearing is expected to be for your age, a fair assumption I think? So I took the test again and used the earliest year available as my birth year (2000) thinking it would surely now say my hearing isn't what you'd expect given my apparent age of 15. But I passed with flying colours again... I really shouldn't have been able to pass it even by telling it my real birth year let alone that of someone with much younger ears! I guess I'm saying two things here: If anyone is relying on the test to give an indication of the state of your hearing - be careful, bear in mind my experience of it above, don't take the test too seriously. Don't be an idiot like me - wear ear plugs from the start and don't assume you'll always get away with it just because your hearing hasn;t been damaged yet, one day it will! Edited July 16, 2015 by stevebasshead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 It tests your ability to hear pure tones in a controlled environment. It's not testing your discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebasshead Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 True indeed, the actiononhearing site only tests discrimination and because of that I don't think it's a complete enough test to be able to put out a message at the end saying in essence "don't worry, your hearing is fine" when clearly from my experience that would've been an incorrect assessment And may be for other people too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 In my experience people who play too loud are doing it because at some level they're confusing loudness with dynamics and ability. We all remember those great moments at gigs where a good band raise the level of intensity up. But it's easy to forget that the reason this worked is because they'd been playing much more quietly beforehand. It's the contrast and dynamics that help make the music great, not the absolute volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 [quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1437127912' post='2823775'] In my experience people who play too loud are doing it because at some level they're confusing loudness with dynamics and ability. We all remember those great moments at gigs where a good band raise the level of intensity up. But it's easy to forget that the reason this worked is because they'd been playing much more quietly beforehand. It's the contrast and dynamics that help make the music great, not the absolute volume. [/quote] You're absolutely right that that is how it starts. But once hearing loss starts to kick in, it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 [quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1437049783' post='2823130'] <p><br /> </p> I love the idea of that test and I know they acknowledge its not a substitute for a proper test with an audiologist I guess I'm saying two things here: If anyone is relying on the test to give an indication of the state of your hearing - be careful, bear in mind my experience of it above, don't take the test too seriously. Don't be an idiot like me - wear ear plugs from the start and don't assume you'll always get away with it just because your hearing hasn;t been damaged yet, one day it will! [/quote] [quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1437057200' post='2823260'] True indeed, the actiononhearing site only tests discrimination and because of that I don't think it's a complete enough test to be able to put out a message at the end saying in essence "don't worry, your hearing is fine" when clearly from my experience that would've been an incorrect assessment And may be for other people too. [/quote] I think the truth is somewhere in between as far as this test is concerned. It's from a reliable source and put up for the best of motives and I'm assuming it is a well developed test with statistically significant results. The results can't be totally reliable because who knows what headphones people will use. Not everyone has a set of top of the range Sennheisers to hand. I'd guess (maybe guessing isn't enough if your hearing is at stake) that it is a bit like going to your GP for a test, you'll get a lot more detail and reliability from an audiologist but it's a decent bit of initial screening. I'd absolutely agree with the advice to wear earphones and only take the test as an indication, but the test ain't bad and I would say a whole lot better than never having a test until it is too late, which I suspect is the alternative for most of us. I'd hate people to be put off trying it and missing early symptoms, even that drummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krysbass Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 I left a covers band last year mostly because of the drummer - he was incapable of any dynamics or subtlety in his playing and was just deafening all the time. Being too loud was unfortunately only one of several shortcomings in his playing and it had reached the point where the band was not getting repeat gig bookings, so the writing was on the wall for the future of the band. We mainly played pub gigs and one of his worst traits was to set up his kit and start bashing away loudly and incessantly before the gig, thereby frightening away much of our intended audience. I can only say that it doesn't matter how good the rest of a band is - if the drummer isn't any good, the whole band is on a hiding to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 We sacked a pro drummer from our function band this year cos he was too loud. He had all the chops and, volume issue aside, was genuinely brilliant but he just ruined the mix. When he turned up at a Christmas gig for a big corporate customer with two China rides and 5 toms it was clear he had to go. He couldn't understand why when we told him and still maintained he wasn't too loud. We found a much more appropriate player pretty quick and a couple of months later our really loud guitarist quit because he stood out like a sore thumb. Whoever it was who said loud guitarists / drummers are less common these days clearly never worked round our way. They're bloody everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Make him play with reeds. He can batter away as much as he wants with those and it won't damage anybody's hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 [quote name='Krysbass' timestamp='1437238144' post='2824627'] ...it doesn't matter how good the rest of a band is - if the drummer isn't any good, the whole band is on a hiding to nothing. [/quote] So true - if you don't have a good drummer you can't do what you need to do as a bass player and effectively you don't have a band. [quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1437253464' post='2824703'] Whoever it was who said loud guitarists / drummers are less common these days clearly never worked round our way. They're bloody everywhere. [/quote] Even with the advent of teh interwebz and cheap digital recording there are still far too many people who like to cover up their shortcomings by playing way too loud and way too fast. Less is more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 [quote name='72deluxe' timestamp='1436779165' post='2820558'] The drummer does have deafness from decades of playing (he says he can't really hear his hihats, and also can't hear if you rub your fingers together next to his ear - he can't hear that) [/quote] He's almost completely deaf, then. That's the problem. Your guitarist can't hear himself because of the drums, but the drummer can't hear himself because of himself. Your drummer won't play any quieter. I don't think he believes he's playing loudly. I think he genuinely can't hear himself, due to years of neglecting his hearing. IMHO, that makes him a danger to your hearing. How do you resolve the problem - I think there's probably very little you can do. I don't think the drummer will play any quieter. You could get super-reducing ear defenders, but then you'll never hear yourself. You could ask the drummer to leave (which likely won't go down too well), or you could leave (also unlikely to go down well). Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 The simple solution is 'don't turn up' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1437285159' post='2824782'] The simple solution is 'don't turn up' [/quote] You mean volume or attendance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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