A strange division in attitudes

[xilddx]

Why is it that highly technical bassists largely seem to be loved on Basschat, but highly technical guitarists seem to be denigrated?

[peteb]

Good point - quite bizarre really

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1412511295' post='2569433']
Why is it that highly technical bassists largely seem to be loved on Basschat, but highly technical guitarists seem to be denigrated?
[/quote]

Can you give some examples of threads? It strikes me that highly technical bassists get their share of derision too.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1412511511' post='2569436']
Can you give some examples of threads? It strikes me that highly technical bassists get their share of derision too.
[/quote]
No I can't do that, it's just the impression I've formed over 6 years on BC.

[chrismuzz]

Because we secretly want more of the limelight?

[Beer of the Bass]

I agree that there is often a knee-jerk reaction against a certain type of technically focussed musician, it's just that I'm not sure I'd identify the same guitar/bass division that you do. The recent Dirty Loops thread is an example - there are lots of comments along those lines but not a guitar in sight.
Although it's possible that the established roles of electric guitar and bass might be a factor. A bassist cutting loose with fearsome technique can be sort of refreshing, while a guitarist doing the same is almost cliché.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1412511844' post='2569438']
No I can't do that, it's just the impression I've formed over 6 years on BC.
[/quote]

I'm not going to disagree with you, but it could be a phenomenon like the old 'two white faces or one black candlestick'..? Sometimes we see (or think we see...) with an unconscious 'leaning'. I recognise the notion, but can't say I'd felt a trend. A bit of stick for everyone is how I see it (but with special scorn for 'guitards, drummists and keysters'...). You may be right, but if there was a serious bias, we'd all see it, no..?
Just sayin'.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Dad3353

[RhysP]

Because it's a bassists forum I guess.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1412513111' post='2569455']
Because it's a bassists forum I guess.
[/quote]

[steve-bbb]

i do feel that there is generally a lot of confusion between technical excellence and showmanship (not with us discerning lot on here i hasten to add!) - and where does one stop and the other start?

imho the best technical guitarists around are coincidentally ones who are the least flashy - all the showboating is often intentionally or unintentionally at the expense of technical excellence - entertaining it may be but bit its like a big mac meal and usually leaves you wanting something of substance

some manage to straddle the border and sit on the fence and tease us with showboating on minute then blinding us with technical expertise the next - its all a matter of taste and there is no accounting for it

personally i cant get my head around how any guitarist can squeal with delight at malsteen fretw***ing himself into oblivion, and be completely uninspired by the likes of holdsworth or fripp - but i guess it would be boring if we were all the same - it would be like a bland musical version of 'new labour's diversity and inclusivity where everybody would be joint equal number one in the charts all time regardless of whether or not they can play the bloody thing

Edited October 5, 2014 by steve-bbb

[flyfisher]

I'm not sure about the OP's premise. Seems to me there are plenty of dissenting posts whenever someone posts an example of 'technical' bass playing, usually along the lines of acknowledging the virtuosity but despairing over the musicality. And bass show reviews also seem to major on complaints about every stand being a dire slap-fest.

Anyway, what is 'technical' bass playing? Is it a simultaneous rendition of three parts on an 8-stringer or is it Norman Watt-Roy pumping out his stonking 'Hit Me' line?

I can't do either, so it's all 'technical' to me.

I'd say Steve-bbb nailed it - [i]"its all a matter of taste and there is no accounting for it"[/i]

Edited October 5, 2014 by flyfisher

[LukeFRC]

probably most of us have played with one of "those" guitarists and been driven to despair with the awfulness that sometimes gets shown (or even worse the second-rate awfulness of people trying to be like "those" guitarists.

I doubt that many of us have played in a band and got annoyed by one of "those" bassists

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1412511295' post='2569433']
Why is it that highly technical bassists largely seem to be loved on Basschat, but highly technical guitarists seem to be denigrated?
[/quote]
I can't say that i've noticed that myself.

[Grangur]

My impression is it's easy to for us to fall into a knee-jerk derision or cynicism of guitarists when we get fed up of the constant camera attention they get on videos. Especially when even with limited knowledge of guitar playing we (or I, at least) get fed up of kids fawning over "impressive solos" which are largely a fast alternation between 2 notes.

... or is it just me being a cynical old git?

[mcnach]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1412511295' post='2569433']
Why is it that highly technical bassists largely seem to be loved on Basschat, but highly technical guitarists seem to be denigrated?
[/quote]

really? I haven't noticed such division, myself...

[lojo]

Im sure we could all search and find threads to support the bassist part, but not sure re discussions about guitarists (think there was one thread recently about a bassist playing with a named guitarist)

[TheSiberian]

I think that is a huge difference between skilled/technical guitarist (see clichee boring) and virtuoso musician (any instrument).
I also think that in most of musical forums some people don't get this difference, hence we see comments like " Malmsteen fretw...ing" etc
This remembers me some w...ing Rush song...quick to judge, quick to anger...slow to understand.
Ups, I forgot to use some smiling faces.

Best

Edited October 7, 2014 by TheSiberian

[dincz]

I must pay more attention.

[leschirons]

Not sure this applies to just bassists and guitarists. Any highly technical performance that is brought into the spotlight will have its critics. Look at the recent Dirty loops thread. Obviously Henrik Linder's musical performance is highly technical but I seem to remember both he and the keyboard / vocalist came under fire along with the arrangements.

People just like to moan about stuff they can't do themselves. How many times have we heard that Marcus Miller can "only slap in E" or that Victor Wooten is "good I guess, but not very melodic with his phrasing" Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, the thing is, the critics can't usually do it any better or don't understand what's going on.

[TheGreek]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1412512416' post='2569442']
Because we secretly want more of the limelight?
[/quote]

This...and the fact that guitarists feel the need to fill every space that we leave causes resentment.

[mcnach]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1412712937' post='2571327']
Not sure this applies to just bassists and guitarists. Any highly technical performance that is brought into the spotlight will have its critics. Look at the recent Dirty loops thread. Obviously Henrik Linder's musical performance is highly technical but I seem to remember both he and the keyboard / vocalist came under fire along with the arrangements.

People just like to moan about stuff they can't do themselves. How many times have we heard that Marcus Miller can "only slap in E" or that Victor Wooten is "good I guess, but not very melodic with his phrasing" Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, the thing is, the critics can't usually do it any better or don't understand what's going on.
[/quote]

There's often a bit of that, I am sure!

[IzzyT2807]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1412513111' post='2569455']
Because it's a bassists forum I guess.
[/quote]

makes sense..

[flyfisher]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1412712937' post='2571327']
[b]People just like to moan about stuff they can't do themselves.[/b] How many times have we heard that Marcus Miller can "only slap in E" or that Victor Wooten is "good I guess, but not very melodic with his phrasing" Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, the thing is, the critics can't usually do it any better or don't understand what's going on.
[/quote]

I don't think that's really true, otherwise most people would moan about all music (assuming it's only a minority of people who can play an instrument).

Music is subjective and you don't have to know what's going on to know if you like the result or not. I'd say it's perfectly possible to appreciate the skill and accomplishment of any virtuoso musician without actually liking the actual noise they make.

I think this is where some 'art critics' make the mistake of sneering at those who dislike a piece of art (which includes music of course) because they don't understand the concept behind the piece or what the artist is trying to convey - as if we [u]would[/u] like it if only we could appreciate what lies behind it. I think this is nonsense. if people better understood the skill and ability that goes into a piece of art then they might be better able to appreciate that skill and ability but it's unlikely to affect their basis enjoyment of the piece.

Unless people only like a piece of music [u]because [/u]it is very difficult to play . . . which seems a very odd concept to me.

Edited October 8, 2014 by flyfisher

[leschirons]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1412765090' post='2571712']


I don't think that's really true, otherwise most people would moan about all music (assuming it's only a minority of people who can play an instrument).

Music is subjective and you don't have to know what's going on to know if you like the result or not. I'd say it's perfectly possible to appreciate the skill and accomplishment of any virtuoso musician without actually liking the actual noise they make.

I think this is where some 'art critics' make the mistake of sneering at those who dislike a piece of art (which includes music of course) because they don't understand the concept behind the piece or what the artist is trying to convey - as if we [u]would[/u] like it if only we could appreciate what lies behind it. I think this is nonsense. if people better understood the skill and ability that goes into a piece of art then they might be better able to appreciate that skill and ability but it's unlikely to affect their basis enjoyment of the piece.

Unless people only like a piece of music [u]because [/u]it is very difficult to play . . . which seems a very odd concept to me.
[/quote]

I have to agree with you on all points. You seem to have homed in on one particular phrase though which upon reflection, I did not explain. (The don't understand what's going on bit) I didn't necessarily mean technically and I should have made this clear.

I remember a thread some time ago where a player called Nigel something was slapping continuously at 1000 mph on video. This guy came under all sorts of verbal attacks regarding his ability / style / musicality etc although, it was all done at clinics and shows where he was demonstrating his endorsers products. It was his job and it probably pays his mortgage.

My main point being that I wonder how many critics he would have had if they could all slap that accurately at that speed whether it has musical credibilty or not.

[flyfisher]

Ah, gotcha - and that's an interesting question. My view is that attacking someone's skill at slapping (or anything really) is pretty bad form, especially if the attacker can't demonstrate the same skill. But I reckon it's fair game to dislike the results of such slapping (or whatever), regardless of whether you can slap or not.

Indeed, if you didn't like slapping, I'd have thought it was unlikely you'd want to spend the necessary time practicing and perfecting the skill, but if you had spent that fabled 10,000 hours perfecting your skill then it's likely that you really do like the sound, in which case you'd be less likely to criticise. So, self-selecting perhaps?