What does it mean to 'outgrow' cheap but good for the price basses?

[chriswareham]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394650406' post='2393751']
I wonder how many players would just go back and be happy playing that first bass that they learned on.
[/quote]

First bass? No, as it was objectively an appalling instrument (Aria Pro II with a neck that couldn't be set up properly). But I'd be content with the the second bass I owned a year into playing (unidentified Peavey), which actually cost me less than the first one.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394641878' post='2393636']
However for me, on a cheap bass many of those adjustments are either not possible or financially viable.

Maybe when you bought your 'beginner' bass you picked one with a neck profile or width that you were comfortable with at the time. That may now be the limiting factor. Change the neck and machine heads? Fine, but maybe the pickups and tone controls aren't quite right either, the body might be a bit heavy. These are things you probably didn't consider when you first bought the bass..
[/quote]

Excellent points which I completely overlooked.

[TimR]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1394663484' post='2393929']


First bass? No, as it was objectively an appalling instrument (Aria Pro II with a neck that couldn't be set up properly). But I'd be content with the the second bass I owned a year into playing (unidentified Peavey), which actually cost me less than the first one.
[/quote]

I think that will be a lot of our collective experience.

What factors did you take into consideration when you bought the replacement. Can you even remember

I don't necessarily think it is the quality you grow out of. The nature of being a beginner is that you are only starting out and learning not only about your playing but also about the instrument and the possibilities and types out there.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394650406' post='2393751']
This is the key part. It's nothing to do with wanting a flash bass to show off with.

As you mature as a player, you find out what it is you want.

I wonder how many players would just go back and be happy playing that first bass that they learned on.
[/quote]

If they gave it a proper set-up and played it through a better rig than they undoubtedly started on, a fairly high proportion.

Though few of them would admit it.

[Conan]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394650758' post='2393755']
I don't form attachments to basses, as far as I'm concerned they're tools.

Like a tradesman I choose tools appropriate to the job - I'm not going to buy a 50p screwdriver and expect to use it everyday for 5 years, I'll buy something that is appropriate to my needs,...If my usage of that screwdriver goes up, or I need it to perform better because I need it to, then I'll replace it with a more appropriate one.[/quote]

Interesting analogy, but I'm not sure it is fully appropriate.

The bass equivalent of your 50p screwdriver will be able to "do the job" almost equally as well as a top-of-the-range, custom handmade screwdriver (if such a thing exists - it would be nice to think that it does!).

Would a highly skilled joiner or electrician do a better job with an expensive screwdriver? Of course, if it broke that would be a problem, but I guess that anyone who uses cheap tools probably has a few spares... maybe I'm pushing that analogy a little far now?

When I think of some of the truly awful basses I played back in the late seventies/early eighties when I was learning, I shudder. You can buy a bass new now for less than £100 that is good enough to gig with! How did that happen? Glad it has though.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Conan

[discreet]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394650758' post='2393755']
I don't form attachments to basses, as far as I'm concerned they're tools.
[/quote]

[i]You're[/i] a tool! Thhhhppp!! [size=4] *Runs away*[/size]

[Fionn]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1394625285' post='2393383']
I guess the day you 'out-grow' a cheap instrument is the day when you realise that the problems you are having with the cheap kit are problems.
[/quote]

I would agree with that.

Ideally, a player would be discerning enough by that point to make the right instrument choice according to what they understand and feel is good v's bad. It's wrong to assume that expensive = good. It's true to say that many an expensive bass has been "outgrown" in favour of a cheaper bass of higher quality.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Fionn

[gjones]

It's a scientifically proven fact, that the more expensive the bass you play, the better your playing gets.

[EMG456]

All of this is rarely about need rather than desire. Never underestimate the power of a headstock decal.

We don't "outgrow" our instruments - they don't actually do anything without our input - we give different input, they'll do different things.

The fact is that we see something that looks nice, we want it. We see someone who's playing style/ ability/ technique/ image/ coolness factor is something we like and we think maybe some of that will rub off if we buy a similar instrument. It's just human nature and it can take a long time for us to work this out - some never do.

I have instruments from all points of the price scale and they all have one thing in common - I like them. No bass is too expensive or too cheap for me to take out on a gig - they all do the same job and each is as valid as the other.

Cheers

Ed

[icastle]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1394704817' post='2394133']
Would a highly skilled joiner or electrician do a better job with an expensive screwdriver? Of course, if it broke that would be a problem, but I guess that anyone who uses cheap tools probably has a few spares... maybe I'm pushing that analogy a little far now?
[/quote]

A 50p screwdriver will be made of low quality metal and will fit the screw 'near enough' but will wear quite quickly.
A good quality screwdriver will be made of vanadium steel, won't wear as quickly and will fit the screw exactly.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1394704817' post='2394133']
When I think of some of the truly awful basses I played back in the late seventies/early eighties when I was learning, I shudder. You can buy a bass new now for less than £100 that is good enough to gig with! How did that happen? Glad it has though.
[/quote]

Absolutely.
I used to work in a music shop back then and some of the instruments were, frankly, no better than cricket bats.
I'm surprised that bass playing didn't die out!
The first 'budget' bass I ever saw that was remotely playable would have been the old Westone Thunder 1 (or 1A if you were a bit richer).

What I need though is a bass that is reliable and always sounds, feels and plays the same whenever I take it out of the case.
It needs to have a stable neck, it needs to have stable intonation and it needs to stay in tune.
It also needs to be comfortable to use, both ergonomically and from a weight perspective.

I'm not saying that budget basses will 'fail' all of those criteria, but failing just one of them would make it an unviable proposition for me.

[Conan]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394723331' post='2394436']
A good quality screwdriver will be made of vanadium steel, [/quote]

Ah, but will it be good any for......

No. I won't.

[icastle]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1394723952' post='2394448']
Ah, but will it be good any for......

No. I won't.
[/quote]

I very nearly did...

[lojo]

To answer the thread title , it just means your GAS is getting worse.

Nothing you cant do on a good cheap bass, with a decent set up through a good amp or pa, my opinion only of course

[TimR]

It beats me why anyone takes so long chosing a bass. Just pick up an Argos catalogue. Less than £90. Job done. You can even chose black or red.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/039186.htm?cmpid=APPSOCIAL01

[icastle]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394739889' post='2394707']
It beats me why anyone takes so long chosing a bass. Just pick up an Argos catalogue. Less than £90. Job done. You can even chose black or red.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/039186.htm?cmpid=APPSOCIAL01
[/quote]

Interesting description:

• 6 nickel flatwound strings.
• 3 single coil pick ups.
• 5-way pick up selector switch.

[Lord Sausage]

Think it's bollocks personally. I've been playing 20 yrs. just done a pro UK theatre tour using a Yamaha BBN5 which i bought for £400 about 17 years ago and an ESP LTD 5 String fretless which i bought for about £400 last year. Both play and sound great. The amount of great comments i got for the sound of both of them is unreal. I don't believe all that over a £1000 guff.

[TimR]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394740671' post='2394718']


Interesting description:

• 6 nickel flatwound strings.
• 3 single coil pick ups.
• 5-way pick up selector switch.


[/quote]

Well it is for beginners. When you get really good and outgrow it you can get a proper one with 4 strings.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1394740787' post='2394720']
Think it's bollocks personally. I've been playing 20 yrs. just done a pro UK theatre tour using a Yamaha BBN5 which i bought for £400 about 17 years ago and an ESP LTD 5 String fretless which i bought for about £400 last year. Both play and sound great. The amount of great comments i got for the sound of both of them is unreal. I don't believe all that over a £1000 guff.
[/quote]

£400! You could get 4 basses from Argos for that!

And still have change for some mid range running shoes.

Edited March 13, 2014 by TimR

[icastle]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394740878' post='2394723']
Well it is for beginners. When you get really good and outgrow it you can get a proper one with 4 strings.
[/quote]

Cool

[icastle]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394740963' post='2394725']
£400! You could get 4 basses from Argos for that!

And still have change for some mid range running shoes.
[/quote]

And a decent screwdriver...

[Dingus]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394650758' post='2393755']
I don't form attachments to basses, as far as I'm concerned they're tools.

Like a tradesman I choose tools appropriate to the job - I'm not going to buy a 50p screwdriver and expect to use it everyday for 5 years, I'll buy something that is appropriate to my needs, does the job I want it to do and have a reasonable life expectation provided I use it in the way that was intended.

If my usage of that screwdriver goes up, or I need it to perform better because I need it to, then I'll replace it with a more appropriate one.

Sure, I have favourite brands but I don't buy tools purely on name or price tag.
They do however, give me an indication of what I can expect from the item in question.
[/quote]


You do realise that if everybody was as sensible as this then the consequence then the entire musical equipment industry would collapse?


It's about time we were all honest with ourselves that buying equipment and playing music are two very distinctly different pursuits. The uncomfortable truth is that accumulating enough money to buy high quality equipment is a much easier thing to do than learning how play your instrument well. It's not surprising that, almost without realising it, a lot of players put more of their energies into buying things rather than improving their skills on what they have. It's no coincidence that in countries like Cuba, China or what was the old Soviet Union where there has been an absence of the consumer culture that prevails in most parts of the World, that the technical standards for musicians of all kinds is, on the whole, much higher than in countries with free market economies flooded with consumer goods. Young people who are interested in music in what until recently were communist countries have had no choice but to channel that interest into musicality and learning their instrument properly, rather than being seduced by the idea that buying things will help them achieve fulfilment.

If my theory is correct, the next Victor Wooten will either be from North Korea or Albania...

Edited March 13, 2014 by Dingus

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1394743570' post='2394765']
You do realise that if everybody was as sensible as this then the consequence then the entire musical equipment industry would collapse?


It's about time we were all honest with ourselves that buying equipment and playing music are two very distinctly different pursuits. The uncomfortable truth is that accumulating enough money to buy high quality equipment is a much easier thing to do than learning how play your instrument well. It's not surprising that, almost without realising it, a lot of players put more of their energies into buying things rather than improving their skills on what they have. It's no coincidence that in countries like Cuba, China or what was the old Soviet Union where there has been an absence of the consumer culture that prevails in most parts of the World, that the technical standards for musicians of all kinds is, on the whole, much higher than in countries with free market economies flooded with consumer goods. Young people who are interested in music in what until recently were communist countries have had no choice but to channel that interest into musicality and learning their instrument properly, rather than being seduced by the idea that buying things will help them achieve fulfilment.

If my theory is correct, the next Victor Wooten will either be from North Korea or Albania...
[/quote]
Totally agree with this post...very astute observations.

[icastle]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1394743570' post='2394765']
You do realise that if everybody was as sensible as this then the consequence then the entire musical equipment industry would collapse?
[/quote]

Very likely, but then I always was an awkward sod.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1394743570' post='2394765']
It's about time we were all honest with ourselves that buying equipment and playing music are two very distinctly different pursuits. The uncomfortable truth is that accumulating enough money to buy high quality equipment is a much easier thing to do than learning how play your instrument well. It's not surprising that, almost without realising it, a lot of players put more of their energies into buying things rather than improving their skills on what they have.
[/quote]

I have always had strict rules about equipment purchases.

Firstly, I ask myself if I need it, or just want it.
If it passes that stage then I ask myself if it's going to pay for itself, if not, then it doesn't happen.

It doesn't apply at the moment, but there's also a rule that states that all musical purchases have to be paid for out of performance money, not wages.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394744330' post='2394789']
I have always had strict rules about equipment purchases.

Firstly, I ask myself if I need it, or just want it.
If it passes that stage then I ask myself if it's going to pay for itself, if not, then it doesn't happen.

It doesn't apply at the moment, but there's also a rule that states that all musical purchases have to be paid for out of performance money, not wages.
[/quote]
Another very wise post. Great advice.

[Dingus]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394744330' post='2394789']
Very likely, but then I always was an awkward sod.



I have always had strict rules about equipment purchases.

Firstly, I ask myself if I need it, or just want it.
If it passes that stage then I ask myself if it's going to pay for itself, if not, then it doesn't happen.

It doesn't apply at the moment, but there's also a rule that states that all musical purchases have to be paid for out of performance money, not wages.
[/quote]

Indeed. The whole industry relies on the perception that there is a division between "professional" ( the magic word) and amateur gear, and that you won't really be able to be effective until you have got equipment of a certain level. The truth, however, is that we have all seen excellent musicians who can make very ordinary basses sound extraordinary because they have the skill to do so, and most professionals are far more concerned with doing their job well , getting paid and getting repeat work than in fetishising their equipment . Even if you do need certain kinds of equipment in certain situations, it's only a question of getting enough money to purchase it. Not necessarily easy, but not usually insurmountable. If you can't play very well though, then no amount of money will help you, unless you spend it on lessons, and ultimately, if you long to be a musician then only playing well will make you happy.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Dingus