10 Things That Need To Change To Save Independent Venues

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1390839156' post='2350121'] Because if you care about music bands are not interchangeable in the same way that one bass is not a direct substitute for another. [/quote]
ah, but even if the promoter cares about the music, they've got to make some sort of profit, which is usually very difficult when putting on an unknown originals band or bands.

[TimR]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1390840236' post='2350147']

ah, but even if the promoter cares about the music, they've got to make some sort of profit, which is usually very difficult when putting on an unknown originals band or bands.
[/quote]

Who is the promoter working for?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1390840236' post='2350147']
ah, but even if the promoter cares about the music, they've got to make some sort of profit, which is usually very difficult when putting on an unknown originals band or bands.
[/quote]

Any venue or promoter doing their job properly sticks unknown bands at the bottom of the bill and gets in a couple of bands that will pull the punters. We've built up a reputation as a band who are going to put on a bit of a show and can cut it live. We get lots of gigs as a result of this. Without needing to play covers.

[flyfisher]

Whinge, moan, moan whinge.

Anyone trying to run a business could make a list of 10 things that would make their lives easier. More customers, higher prices, better products, fewer competitors, lower cost suppliers, lower business rates, lower property costs. blah, blah, blah. But guess what? Outside of a state-run monopoly, they can't dictate any of those things and have to deal with the way the world is and not the way they'd like it to be.

None of that is to deny that music a tough business but so what? There are loads of tough businesses, but that should hardly be a surprise to anyone and no one is being forced into them. Are they?

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1390841120' post='2350165'] Any venue or promoter doing their job properly sticks unknown bands at the bottom of the bill and gets in a couple of bands that will pull the punters. We've built up a reputation as a band who are going to put on a bit of a show and can cut it live. We get lots of gigs as a result of this. Without needing to play covers. [/quote]
Yes this is very true, but the bands at the bottom of the bill don't get paid very often and some of the biggest bands start off as covers bands, Beatles, Rolling Stones, the Jam, that's one of the ways, in the early days you get a bit of money coming in and get gigs.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1390839199' post='2350122']
I'm trying to imagine a situation that would have both Wreckless Eric & Eddie Waring in the same mens toilet - an "All-Star" edition of "It's A Knock Out" maybe?
[/quote]

One of the weirder moments of my life. I'm having a wizz, look round and there's Wreckless Eric next to me.

Me: Evening. Like your work, got your album.

WE: Thanks. This f***ing pub's full of rugby fans.

Me: Yes. Hull Kingston Rovers were playing today

WE: Bit of the 'Up and Under', eh?

Cubicle door opens and out steps Eddie Waring to our mutual surprise.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1390830930' post='2349960']
This is what Kit wrote, and I agree.

[color=#333333]This would be a great list if it addressed that fact that the vast majority of bands playing small to medium venues do. not. get. paid. London venues like the Lexington and Shackwell Arms have promoters who welcome hundreds of people through the door, but do not even give the bands a few free drinks. This is when tickets cost £7-9 quid, and the bar is rammed 'til 2am.[/color]

[color=#333333]Being a musician, particularly in London, is f***ing expensive. We work hard and pay a lot of money to rehearse to entertain people - to bastardise Andy's plumber analogy, you wouldn't expect to supply your plumber with champagne, but you also wouldn't expect her to do the job for free. I wish more promoters would start treating bands with respect and at least covering their travel expenses, if nothing else.[/color]
[/quote]

Spot on Nige. Contrast this with my covers band The Daves, who only play at places where entrance is free, yet we get paid well, and from what I see from other covers bands, we are quite reasonable on our rates. Somehow these venues manage to make enough to cover the band.

For the reasons stated, that`s why I don`t like playing those "industry venues". Charge £7 on the door, hope each of the five bands bring between 5 & 10 people along, promoter - if that`s what they are as I rarely see any actual promotion - goes home with around £300 for simply arranging 5 bands to play. No thought as to genres or efforts to publicise.

So I don`t think 10 reasons are needed, only the 1 - get promoters to actually promote gigs, and pay bands - watch the increase in punters through the door.

[Mog]

I honestly think bands need to take more responsibility. If you expect to be paid for a gig, particularly an originals gig, you damn well better be professional enough to turn up on time with the correct gear and most importantly entertain the regular punters, [i]i.e.[/i] try to play in a venue which regularly has acts from a particular genre and/or with other acts from a similar genre. It is not entirely up to the club owner (or to a certain degree the promoter)to get heads in the door, the band has to be the draw, not beer promotions or entry concessions. The band/act is there solely to provide entertainment. If you think you deserve better pay up you're game.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Mog

[TimR]

That is a chicken and egg situation though.

The band won't necessarily bring their own audience. The audience should come from the local area and be attracted because they know that 'Promoter A' always puts on good bands.

Anyone playing the pub scene will know they get asked back on the stength of their performance. If the locals like you, they come and watch you next time and tell their mates. If each time you play a venue you get a smaller audience then you're doing something wrong. If people come up at the end and tell you you're a good band then you're doing something right.

Surely that's obvious to the promoters and the venues? It's not rocket science. Are the promoters promoting bands without having seen them perform?

Edited January 27, 2014 by TimR

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1390846137' post='2350290']
I honestly think bands need to take more responsibility. If you expect to be paid for a gig, particularly an originals gig, you damn well better be professional enough to turn up on time with the correct gear and most importantly entertain the regular punters, [i]i.e.[/i] try to play in a venue which regularly has acts from a particular genre and/or with other acts from a similar genre. It is not entirely up to the club owner (or to a certain degree the promoter)to get heads in the door, the band has to be the draw, not beer promotions or entry concessions. The band/act is there solely to provide entertainment. If you think you deserve better pay up you're game.
[/quote]

Yes, yes and once again yes!

[scalpy]

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1390846137' post='2350290']
I honestly think bands need to take more responsibility. If you expect to be paid for a gig, particularly an originals gig, you damn well better be professional enough to turn up on time with the correct gear and most importantly entertain the regular punters, [i]i.e.[/i] try to play in a venue which regularly has acts from a particular genre and/or with other acts from a similar genre. It is not entirely up to the club owner (or to a certain degree the promoter)to get heads in the door, the band has to be the draw, not beer promotions or entry concessions. The band/act is there solely to provide entertainment. If you think you deserve better pay up you're game.
[/quote]

Agree with this in part. People are normally at somewhere else in the venue when a band's on because a) the band are too loud (bit cheeky in the article to complain about health and safety when the decibel levels are normally crippling) and it the band doesn't groove. And as much as many people on here will protest that isn't important, if I want to see a live act they must be rhythmically accomplished. Most bands I hear on the radio or watch at major festivals can do this, regardless of genre. Bands need to help each other out too, I legged it to London to play the Miller last November only for the other bands and their friends to be non-exsistent when we were on. Thanks, a 260 mile round trip to play to people we all knew in respective towns anyway.

However, having schlepped around London toilet venues for the last 15 years and played many of the "significant" ones, I've only played at two where the promoter had any ability to promote. One did the bill like Later (Catapult Club, New Cross), we were the headline act, so played first for half our set, the rest of the bill was reversed, there was a resident comedian compering, a regular acoustic act half way through then the bill proper. Result, we played to a full room, as did everyone else for the whole night. The other (The Bedford, Balham) actually booked bands from London on the same night, that were similar in genre, had nice food on sale, ( not doing Camden so much anymore..!), had an internet feed and people actually stayed to watch us. For a while I kept hearing the Half Moon in Putney bleating about going under and to be frank, I thought "I'm not surprised." Every time I played there, I paid for a bus out of my own pocket to travel down with our regular home town crowd, a fortune in parking/fines, just to play to those people on our bus. Who could see us down the regular venues at home without taking a day off work, paying London prices for food and drink, and getting home at 6 in the morning after the bus broke down, as happened on one occasion. The other bands on the bill, one from Southampton and one from Manchester was about the most sensible selection, thanks for that, trying to build our live audience to people from towns we'd never realistically play, both being over 200 miles away.

There needs to be a bit of intelligence on how to do a gig successfully. I don't recall where I heard this and maybe it's not true, but apparently Kasabian used to play the pub nearest the football ground at 5:30 on a Saturday afternoon. Bit of business acumen that and more than I ever managed.

Edited January 27, 2014 by scalpy

[spinynorman]

Probably the best thing you could do to help smaller venues outside the cities would be to repeal the drink/drive laws. Can't see it happening, though.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1390830930' post='2349960']

[color=#333333]Being a musician, particularly in London, is f***ing expensive. We work hard and pay a lot of money to rehearse to entertain people - to bastardise Andy's plumber analogy, you wouldn't expect to supply your plumber with champagne, but you also wouldn't expect her to do the job for free. [/color]
[/quote]

Nige, I ignored this bit first time around but now that it's been re-quoted (approvingly) I feel I have to point out the elephant in the room.

The plumber isn't plumbing because he/she likes plumbing and because plumbing is fun and sexy and fulfilling and leads to a great social life and some really cool experiences.

They do it for the money.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390848427' post='2350347']
Nige, I ignored this bit first time around but now that it's been re-quoted (approvingly) I feel I have to point out the elephant in the room.

The plumber isn't plumbing because he/she likes plumbing and because plumbing is fun and sexy and fulfilling and leads to a great social life and some really cool experiences.

They do it for the money.


[/quote]

There are many non-musicians who enjoy what they do that get paid. My brother, for instance, is a designer, he loves his job, has met some very interesting, fascinating and sometimes famous people doing it and has been to some jaw dropping places in the world to work. Should he do his job for free simply because he enjoys it and has had some great experiences doing so?

The answer is no, hence to elephant int the room falls flat on its arse

[TimR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390848427' post='2350347']


Nige, I ignored this bit first time around but now that it's been re-quoted (approvingly) I feel I have to point out the elephant in the room.

The plumber isn't plumbing because he/she likes plumbing and because plumbing is fun and sexy and fulfilling and leads to a great social life and some really cool experiences.

They do it for the money.


[/quote]

Analogies never work.

Both the plumber and the musician agree a rate.

If the plumber does a bad job and the pipes leak you don't use him again, even if he was free.

It doesn't matter how many free plumbers you use if your pipes still leak.

Seems a strange thing to blame the poor plumber for leaky pipe work when you could employ a good plumber and get the job done properly.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1390851571' post='2350438']
There are many non-musicians who enjoy what they do that get paid. My brother, for instance, is a designer, he loves his job, has met some very interesting, fascinating and sometimes famous people doing it and has been to some jaw dropping places in the world to work. Should he do his job for free simply because he enjoys it and has had some great experiences doing so?

The answer is no, hence to elephant int the room falls flat on its arse
[/quote]
[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1390851649' post='2350440']
Analogies never work.

Both the plumber and the musician agree a rate.

If the plumber does a bad job and the pipes leak you don't use him again, even if he was free.

It doesn't matter how many free plumbers you use if your pipes still leak.

Seems a strange thing to blame the poor plumber for leaky pipe work when you could employ a good plumber and get the job done properly.
[/quote]

Outstanding work gents.

So nobody here plays music because they enjoy playing music? If you're not getting paid, it's no fun, right?

Ah well, must just me be then.

Again.

[BigRedX]

No, I love playing music. I'll do that bit for free. However the endless hours travelling to venues and waiting around. That's the bit I want paying for… ;-)

[Marvin]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390851775' post='2350444']
Outstanding work gents.

So nobody here plays music because they enjoy playing music? If you're not getting paid, it's no fun, right?

Ah well, must just me be then.

Again.


[/quote]

Why does having fun in your chosen occupation preclude you from being compensated for it?? Is there something immoral or unethical about having fun and earning money?

I play because I love music but sometimes it's not fun. Sometimes I'd rather stay home, watch the tele, eat biscuits, drink tea and annoy the wife by farting all night - but then I get the times where I get lost in the whole music thing and farting isn't so appealing

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390848427' post='2350347']
Nige, I ignored this bit first time around but now that it's been re-quoted (approvingly) I feel I have to point out the elephant in the room.

The plumber isn't plumbing because he/she likes plumbing and because plumbing is fun and sexy and fulfilling and leads to a great social life and some really cool experiences.

They do it for the money.


[/quote]

some would say they do it because they see it as a licence to print money

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1390852713' post='2350467']
Why does having fun in your chosen occupation preclude you from being compensated for it?? Is there something immoral or unethical about having fun and earning money?
[/quote]

Of course not. But neither is playing for free if that's what some bands are happy doing, just for the love of playing.

[BigRedX]

TBH I think the main problem is too many venues/promotors who have no idea how to run a live music venue/evening and too many bands who don't know how to entertain the audience.

[JTUK]

I am sure there a more than a few good valid points here but I can't get past the 'decent venue, playing for free, concept.
That does not make them a decent venue as far as I can see.
There must be pay back... and the point about a free showcase venue in the old days was valid then but not today.

But............................... I don't think you can complain about the rip-off joints exisiting if you continue to play there
so to that extent, you deserve what you get..and if you feel you are being ripped off, then....?????????

Around here, bands want upwards of 40% of the ticket sales. The venue has no product without decent bands
so I can see the point..just..of doing a loss-leader one time only so everyone knows the score...they like you, you like them etc etc
but you have to back yourself at some point and demand they either pay you or you don't gig there.
This is all old news... but do the paying guests know bands don't get paid..???
Can you take a bucket around...??

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390851775' post='2350444']
Outstanding work gents.

So nobody here plays music because they enjoy playing music? If you're not getting paid, it's no fun, right?

Ah well, must just me be then.

Again.


[/quote]

Nope.... I hate that idea. I think I'm worth it. The punters think we are worth it, I find it insulting that a promoter might think I work for free...but he wouldn't be able to ask the bar staff or the security or themselves to do the same.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1390855492' post='2350556']
Nope.... I hate that idea. I think I'm worth it. The punters think we are worth it, I find it insulting that a promoter might think I work for free...but he wouldn't be able to ask the bar staff or the security or themselves to do the same.
[/quote]

Agreed. I'm worth it, and I greatly prefer to get paid. Not because I do it for the money (I have a grown-up job for paying the bills) but because that tells me I must be doing something right.

BUT that really only applies in one of my four bands, a pub-rock covers band.

The other three bands, I don't do it for the money cos there isn't any. Sometimes we get a tenner for the petrol, sometimes we get a few beers.

Sure I could say: "[i]I ain't getting out of bed for less than £50 a man[/i]". And then I could stay in bed.

Given a choice between playing for nothing and not playing at all, you know what? I'll play for nothing.

If people like your music enough then they'll come to your gigs. Then you'll get paid.

If you're playing to three members of your own family and a guy who was asleep at the bar when you arrived, then your audience is trying to tell you something. [size=1]Very quietly.[/size]

[thepurpleblob]

Most venues are horrible and most bands are crap. Who wants to go to a derelict cinema with everything painted black to see some un-entertaining band while standing in an inch of stale beer?

Absolutely everybody involved is selling a service and a reasonably aspirational one at that. And who is this for? The punters, that's who! We forget this at our peril and a significant proportion of anybody who has anything to do with bands and small venues seem to be incredibly adept at forgetting that.