Even the best luthiers have their off-days...

[Dingus]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1376674474' post='2177908']
I'm curious as to why a "boutique" bass would play with less relief in the neck than any other. A vibrating string doesn't care how much you paid, the laws of physics remain the same. A bass with perfectly levelled frets will be playable with less relief and lower action than one without, but it's simple enough to achieve a good fret job and setup on almost any properly functioning bass. OK, only the higher end instruments come like that from the maker, and perhaps that's what you meant. I'd agree on the usefulness of a stable and stiff neck though.
[/quote]

All I mean is that , for whatever reason , if I sit down with a perfect example of an EBMM bass as it came from the factory and a fine example of a handmade , hand -finished custom bass then in practise I can set the neck straighter and the action lower . Regardless of what ought to be , in reality the EBMM basses usually require a fair amount of relief to play cleanly at the lower end of the neck and the action has to be set a certain height to avoid excessive fretbuzz for most players . Why that would be the case is probably due to a number of factors , including how perfect the fret job is , how the neck behaves under tension , how true the fingerboard is , the pitch of the neck and the amount of fallaway manufacured into the fingerboard , and probably a few more things besides . I agree that many factory -made guitars can be improved by some after -market care from a skilled luthier .

[JTUK]

Any boutique bass worth its salt...and that is not a given, IMO... should score on construction, components and QC.
My late 70/80's MM was a great bass with a rock solid neck...could cope with a 100 guage string de-tuned to B and tune it well...and never moved AT ALL, I think it showed me what a good bass really was, IMO.
I loved it... only sold it because I went to 5's and didn't want to go back... but compared to what I play now... it was
a chunk of wood.
That shows you can use inferior woods and machined prodcution (i,e cheaper ) and get it really right ( they did ) but if a custom maker has anything about them at all
then there will be quite a distance between them and a production bass. You may not value or care about the extra but it should be plainly there. IMO/IME.

Edited August 16, 2013 by JTUK

[Dingus]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376675049' post='2177930']
Try selling a high end graphite necked bass at the moment - they are really out of fashion.

I wasn't at all surprised they had problems
[/quote]

You would have thought that the Flea association would have kept them going , but as I alluded to earlier in this thread , people aspiring to your basses doesn't earn you a penny as a builder . It's only the people who become customers and actually hand over their cash that make any real difference . Legions of teenage slap bass - playing Flea -wannabes who aspire to a Modulus as the ultimate obviously didn't translate into overwhelming sales figures for the brand as a whole .

Edited August 16, 2013 by Dingus

[mart3442]

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1376308244' post='2171882']
It certainly doesn't look great for a new bass. On an early Fender though it would probably be considered 'mojo'.
[/quote]

It wasn't a new Bass, it was a 12 month old demo model.

[molan]

Had a chat with Jimmy about all of this last night.

Some 'interesting' stuff going on behind the scenes that didn't hit the public domain on TB.

He's decided, wisely I think, to keep it, mostly, to himself. Needless to say it was some of this stuff that made him so angry and, I'm sure, lead to his public response. I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from stoking the fires any further either.

One thing appears certain though, his dealers around the world haven't picked up any negative feedback from people with orders in the pipeline and there's been no reduction in demand.

Could be early days of course. . .

[pierreganseman]

Well yes, there's always two sides man

[thodrik]

[quote name='mart3442' timestamp='1376703653' post='2178327']
It wasn't a new Bass, it was a 12 month old demo model.
[/quote]

I know.I meant 'new' as compared to an old Fender.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376675444' post='2177945']
You would have thought that the Flea association would have kept them going , but as I alluded to earlier in this thread , people aspiring to your basses doesn't earn you a penny as a builder . It's only the people who become customers and actually hand over their cash that make any real difference . Legions of teenage slap bass - playing Flea -wannabes who aspire to a Modulus as the ultimate obviously didn't translate into overwhelming sales figures for the brand as a whole .
[/quote]

My view is that Flea fanboys were never aware that he played a Modulus, as there is has always been an assumption that Flea plays a Stingray. Stingrays are more prevalent in the market, so Flea fans bought Stingrays (I've seen plenty over the years!)

[ezbass]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376731523' post='2178435']
Had a chat with Jimmy about all of this last night.

Some 'interesting' stuff going on behind the scenes that didn't hit the public domain on TB.

He's decided, wisely I think, to keep it, mostly, to himself. Needless to say it was some of this stuff that made him so angry and, I'm sure, lead to his public response. I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from stoking the fires any further either.
[/quote]Oh now you've got us all intrigued, no fair

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1376735285' post='2178492']


I know.I meant 'new' as compared to an old Fender.



My view is that Flea fanboys were never aware that he played a Modulus, as there is has always been an assumption that Flea plays a Stingray. Stingrays are more prevalent in the market, so Flea fans bought Stingrays (I've seen plenty over the years!)
[/quote]
I agree but a lot of crap is spoken about him not using them as much as other basses but even when recording with other basses he always made them sound like stingrays anyway, his most iconic era was filmed with him playing them and that's what counts to most fans of anything. I have seen people suggest that he never played rays until the blood sugar sex magik era, I normally point them to the album cover of the first album from 1984! Which to bring us back to the topic of graphite is actually a cutlass with a modulus neck so he had the modulus connection from day one I like flea and am presumed a fanboy because of my rays but I got into them because of John Deacon actually. Ironically I hear flea records mostly with an SR5 on the last few albums but I have never seen him with one live?

[Dingus]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376731523' post='2178435']
Had a chat with Jimmy about all of this last night.

Some 'interesting' stuff going on behind the scenes that didn't hit the public domain on TB.

He's decided, wisely I think, to keep it, mostly, to himself. Needless to say it was some of this stuff that made him so angry and, I'm sure, lead to his public response. I'm not sure there's anything to be gained from stoking the fires any further either.

One thing appears certain though, his dealers around the world haven't picked up any negative feedback from people with orders in the pipeline and there's been no reduction in demand.

Could be early days of course. . .
[/quote]

Just like I said , there are two sides to every story , and Jimmy is an expert at building basses , not at public relations and making statements about unproven accusations . Trial by the internet mob in his abscence is no kind of justice at all . Not at all surprising then , that by the time JC responded on Talkbass he was perhaps a little bit angry and emotional . I am sure that a month from now all this will be forgotten , someone else will no doubt be singled out for self-righteous indignation from all and sundry , and AC will go on just as if it had never happened . I know for a fact that if Jimmy had a chat with Roger Sadowsky , Mica Wickersham at Alembic , or Rick Turner , to name just a few , they could all swap tales with him about similar disagreements and "issues "with customers . No doubt Jimmy will have learnt lessons from all this , as will the disgruntled buyer . One to chalk up to experience , I think .

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376749001' post='2178658']
Jimmy is an expert at building basses , not at public relations and making statements about unproven accusations .
[/quote]

You may have overlooked one or two other person's observations but to a few people it is about the multiplicity of the sad scenario; the quality of the instrument sold as well as his response on TB! Aside from anyone's personal stance on JC, as far as I am aware there were no 'unproven accusations'... or did I miss something?

[Dingus]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376750493' post='2178686']
You may have overlooked one or two other person's observations but to a few people it is about the multiplicity of the sad scenario; the quality of the instrument sold as well as his response on TB! Aside from anyone's personal stance on JC, as far as I am aware there were no 'unproven accusations'... or did I miss something?
[/quote]

The issues with the instrument are a moot point because of the ambigous nature of the understanding between the buyer and Jimmy Coppollo . The buyer knew the bass was compromised , he just wasn't expecting it to be [i]that [/i]compromised . As I have already tried to highlight , we only know what the buyer is telling us . We don't know what he he may be omitting from his account . There is great scope for subjectivity in his version of events . The unproven accusation is that Jimmy Coppollo was knowingly dishonest and unscrupulous in his dealings with the customer . It's quite possible that there was in fact a genuine misunderstanding or faliure in communication between the two parties . Regarding JC's reaction , in hindsight he could have managed things better in that respect , but like I just said , public relations are not neccesarilly his forte , and he was most likely feeling a bit upset by that point . He's only human , after all . As far as I am aware , there has been no chorus of other disgruntled AC customers chiming in with similar experiences , so maybe this incident is a one -off abberation .

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376752422' post='2178711']
The issues with the instrument are a moot point because of the ambigous nature of the understanding between the buyer and Jimmy Coppollo . The buyer knew the bass was compromised , he just wasn't expecting it to be [i]that [/i]compromised . As I have already tried to highlight , we only know what the buyer is telling us . We don't know what he he may be omitting from his account . There is great scope for subjectivity in his version of events . The unproven accusation is that Jimmy Coppollo was knowingly dishonest and unscrupulous in his dealings with the customer . It's quite possible that there was in fact a genuine misunderstanding or faliure in communication between the two parties . Regarding JC's reaction , in hindsight he could have managed things better in that respect , but like I just said , public relations are not neccesarilly his forte , and he was most likely feeling a bit upset by that point . He's only human , after all . As far as I am aware , there has been no chorus of other disgruntled AC customers chiming in with similar experiences , so maybe this incident is a one -off abberation .
[/quote]

How can the the issues with the bass be a moot point? Surely the issues with the bass are ALL that matters!

Regardless of what I feel about the buyer/seller, the situation as it 'appears' on TB or of AC basses in general, the 'fact' is that the bass is a poor specimen of an instrument regardless of builder or price point and that isn't subjective.

Any way, I'm sure like many I have reached my own conclusions based upon what I have seen, read and debated and I'll leave this be for now.

[Dingus]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376752847' post='2178718']
How can the the issues with the bass be a moot point? Surely the issues with the bass are ALL that matters!

Regardless of what I feel about the buyer/seller, the situation as it 'appears' on TB or of AC basses in general, the 'fact' is that the bass is a poor specimen of an instrument regardless of builder or price point and that isn't subjective.

Any way, I'm sure like many I have reached my own conclusions based upon what I have seen, read and debated and I'll leave this be for now.
[/quote]

That's your prerogative , but , put simply , the point I trying to make is that if the builder warns you that the bass isn't exactly perfect and you agree to buy without properly ascertaining the true extent of the wear then that can be a rather elastic scenario when it comes to assessing the permissable degree of"inconsistancies" on the bass . With hindsight , both parties should have been way more specific .

[BigRedX]

The bottom line is that with his reputation for quality, Jimmy Coppolo shouldn't have been selling this bass in the first place at any price and with any number of disclaimers on its condition. It does the brand no favours and at some point it was going to come back and bite him. Maybe in the end it was lucky that happened sooner rather than later after it had passed through the hands of more bass players each of whom was going to be fairly unimpressed by what they saw and played.

[thodrik]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376746286' post='2178618']
I agree but a lot of crap is spoken about him not using them as much as other basses but even when recording with other basses he always made them sound like stingrays anyway, his most iconic era was filmed with him playing them and that's what counts to most fans of anything. I have seen people suggest that he never played rays until the blood sugar sex magik era, I normally point them to the album cover of the first album from 1984! Which to bring us back to the topic of graphite is actually a cutlass with a modulus neck so he had the modulus connection from day one I like flea and am presumed a fanboy because of my rays but I got into them because of John Deacon actually. Ironically I hear flea records mostly with an SR5 on the last few albums but I have never seen him with one live?
[/quote]

Pretty much my experience. For the record I love Flea. He has always been chopping and changing basses for records, but he was using the Stingray live quite a lot, and I think in a few videos too, right up until he got the Modulus Flea bass, which aesthetically looks a bit like a Ray anyway. Since Flea used to customise his basses with stickers and custom paint jobs, to the uninitiated it would look like a Stingray anyway.

I didn't buy the old album, but I am pretty sure that Stadium Arcadium was all done on 60s Jazz bass. That is the one album where to me the bass doesn't sound like it could be a Stingray. One Hot Minute (Alembic), Blood Sugar (mostly a Wal), Freaky Styley and Mothers Milk (Spectors I think) all sound like they could have been played on a Stingray!

[stingrayPete1977]

That's the top and bottom, why is only for flea to know but he always makes stuff sound like a ray and mainly plays ray derived basses live.I have seen them play manchester last year and Knebworth last year, didnt touch a jazz at either so it looks like he is back loving his modulus basses, essentially a new mm cutlass

[stingrayPete1977]

Anyway what was this thread about?

[Dingus]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376765682' post='2178923']
Anyway what was this thread about?
[/quote]

It was about how Flea had bought an Alleva Coppollo bass and wanted his money back because it didn't sound like a Stingray .

I dont think Flea makes all his basses sound like Stingrays by any means , but he cetainly does make them all sound like him , if that makes sense . I think when he plays a Wal or Spector or Alembic he doesn't come even close to the Stingray sound that we all know so well except that he always has an agressive edge to his playing .His Modulus basses come very close to that Music Man sound , and , rightly or wrongly , he will always be most closely associated with that design of bass .

Edited August 17, 2013 by Dingus

[stingrayPete1977]

He sounds sh*t live mostly (and I'm a fan)

[Dingus]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376766475' post='2178939']
He sounds sh*t live mostly (and I'm a fan)
[/quote]

He needs to stop flailing his head around like that or he will get neck problems ! As my Dad once said about Angus Young when we were watching AC/DC on t.v when I was a kid , imagine how well he could play if he stood still and stopped throwing himself around so much .

[stingrayPete1977]

Ha, I agree.

[molan]

Hypothetically speaking. . .

If I buy a bass that's been used and shows obvious wear marks that the builder tells me about, then I fiddle around with it and make it significantly worse, does that mean the guy who sold it to me is completely in the wrong and shouldn't have sold it to me in the first place?

Edited August 17, 2013 by molan

[Gust0o]

Hypothetically speaking, there are better ways to do business, resolve complaints and promote your brand

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376777440' post='2179111']
Hypothetically speaking. . .

If I buy a bass that's been used and shows obvious wear marks that the builder tells me about, then I fiddle around with it and make it significantly worse, does that mean the guy who sold it to me is completely in the wrong and shouldn't have sold it to me in the first place?
[/quote]

Barrie - surely you arent telling me that the purchaser of this bass routed the horn like that.. then went to the trouble of refinishing it?

The superglue would have cleaned up easy. Whether it was put there or not be JC, I cant believe it would have left the JC workshop without the glue being removed.

All very odd.