Can cheap pots make your bass sound cr@p?

[icastle]

[quote name='Rayman' timestamp='1365629869' post='2042206']
I digress....during the chat with my tech he basically said that replacing the parts would be pretty pointless unless they were faulty. Replacing the pickups would be fine if I didn't like them, but why not try them for a bit first, then decide. Great advice, because I loved them regardless of the make or opinions of others. He then pointed out that cloth wiring looks lovely but is no different in performance to the plastic covered stuff already in there. same with the pots, if they work fine, leave them alone, don't waste your money.
[/quote]

You've got yourself a tech with common sense there, look after him and give him beer.

[PaulWarning]

bypass the pots entirely, see if you can tell the difference, you could leave it like that and use your amp to alter the tone and volume then you know nothings being taken away from the signal, I believe Mike Dirnt does, or did this

[discreet]

[quote name='Rayman' timestamp='1365629869' post='2042206']
The funk's in the fingers...
[/quote]

Yes. Hey - that would be a good name for a funk band...

[Lfalex v1.1]

Imagine... A bass with no controls! Paradise or heresy? We'd have nothing to fiddle with or worry about.
Could make for some nice clean designs, though.

[flyfisher]

The original question was about whether 'cheap pots' affect the tone but the answers have meandered around different values and different configurations, so things have become a bit confusing.

I'd say that a 'cheap' pot of the same value in the same circuit configuration will make no difference when compared with an expensive one. I'd expect the expensive one to last longer and the cheaper one might even be a little bit noisy when being turned but tone wise I can't see how there can be any difference because the defining circuit characteristic will be ohms. That's all.

Change the ohms, connect things in a different way and then there might be some differences. You might even be able to hear them. but it doesnt make much sense for a straight like-for-like ohms substitution to make any difference to the circuit operation.

[bremen]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1365841014' post='2045053']
Imagine... A bass with no controls! Paradise or heresy? We'd have nothing to fiddle with or worry about.
Could make for some nice clean designs, though.
[/quote]

I did that for a while, single MM pickup straight to the jack. It was [i]very [/i]bright. Only thing I missed was being able to fade the last note out; didn't realise I did that til the control wasn't there.

[skidder652003]

All i can say is that Kiogon (John) changed the pots from my JV squier to his own and the difference in sound was truly astonishing. Much deeper and louder, completely changed the characteristics of that bass.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1365841014' post='2045053']
Imagine... A bass with no controls! Paradise or heresy? We'd have nothing to fiddle with or worry about.
Could make for some nice clean designs, though.
[/quote]
I never touch the controls on my bass, apart from to check they're full on

[bremen]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1365852393' post='2045196']
All i can say is that Kiogon (John) changed the pots from my JV squier to his own and the difference in sound was truly astonishing. Much deeper and louder, completely changed the characteristics of that bass.
[/quote]
As previously mentioned, placebo is an awesome upgrade.
Not to criticise the quality of Kiogon's pots or workmanship, and it's always good to use a more reliable part, but the laws of physics say: there is no way that replacing a crappy 250k pot with a quality one in a passive bass can affect the signal. Or to put it another way, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof: show me HOW it's possible for a crappy 250k pot and a quality one to behave differently in a passive bass.

[icastle]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1365852393' post='2045196']
All i can say is that Kiogon (John) changed the pots from my JV squier to his own and the difference in sound was truly astonishing. Much deeper and louder, completely changed the characteristics of that bass.
[/quote]

Changed them from what to what though?
Changing the values of a pot would make a difference, changing like for like wouldn't.

[Grangur]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1365981866' post='2046996']
Changed them from what to what though?
Changing the values of a pot would make a difference, changing like for like wouldn't.
[/quote]
I've got certificates to tell me I know about electrics and electronics and I would agree with you totally... until I proved myself wrong.

I upgraded a bass and bought some nice new 250K pots on EvilBay. With the new pups and bridge and stuff I didn't know what I was going to get. I plugged in and the sound was thin and metalic. OK, some would like it, but it's not my thing.

I wire the Bartolini pups straight to the jack and found out what they sound like - totally different.
I changed the pots to Fender brand 250K pots and the soul came back into the sound. Far deeper, good woody bass with growl.

Ask me to explain and I can't. All I can say is I'm about to make the same investment on another bass to get the improvement again, but this time on a jazz.

[Mr. Foxen]

The better the quality of the pot, the more you can assume they are perfect electrical devices. "a pot is a pot" assumes the pot is a perfect electrical device.

[gjones]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1365852393' post='2045196']
All i can say is that Kiogon (John) changed the pots from my JV squier to his own and the difference in sound was truly astonishing. Much deeper and louder, completely changed the characteristics of that bass.
[/quote]

+1 Same here. Although repeated fitting and resoldering of wires, due to complusively changing pickups, didn't help the sound of my original electrics.

[KiOgon]

I guess I must be doing something right

Cheerz guys

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1373702685' post='2140668']
I've got certificates to tell me I know about electrics and electronics and I would agree with you totally... until I proved myself wrong.

I upgraded a bass and bought some nice new 250K pots on EvilBay. With the new pups and bridge and stuff I didn't know what I was going to get. I plugged in and the sound was thin and metalic. OK, some would like it, but it's not my thing.

I wire the Bartolini pups straight to the jack and found out what they sound like - totally different.
I changed the pots to Fender brand 250K pots and the soul came back into the sound. Far deeper, good woody bass with growl.

Ask me to explain and I can't. All I can say is I'm about to make the same investment on another bass to get the improvement again, but this time on a jazz.
[/quote]
One would expect your certs to cover unexpected variables such as dry solder joints or even accidentally wiring the pups out of phase. You asked, and these to me seem more likely explanations than miracles.
I guess this thread proves that there are bassists who have faith in faith and there are bassists who put stock in science... ergo bassists are human. QED

[Grangur]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1373799353' post='2141652']
One would expect your certs to cover unexpected variables such as dry solder joints or even accidentally wiring the pups out of phase. You asked, and these to me seem more likely explanations than miracles.
I guess this thread proves that there are bassists who have faith in faith and there are bassists who put stock in science... ergo bassists are human. QED
[/quote]
What I was trying to say here was that it's easy to think of a pot as being a variable resister (VR) and nothing more. So as a resister one would expect it will only resist the flow of current and the usual variations. The variation in a resister that one expects to find due to quality is that in the resistance value. Quality in sound would, therefore, not be expected. The fact with a pot that is easily over looked is that it's also a coil and as such we can expect that there will be inductance added to the circuit. This inductance can be increased or discouraged by the nature of the material that the resistance wire is formed around.

If the inductance in the coil is increased so will the back EMF caused in the circuit by the inductance in the VR.

So to answer the question; No, the phrase "a pot is just a pot" is not correct unless the wire is of the same gauge, same number of coils and the core is the same, etc, etc.

From my own experience in buying pots in a music shop, the retailers are flummoxed enough when you start expressing a preference for any sort of quality, let alone asking "what's the material used in the core of this pot?"

Edit - this is all based on my surmising of the situation and I've not worked in electronics for err... too long. So Ou7shined may be along in a mo' and tell me I'm wrong.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Grangur

[Mr. Foxen]

The clue there is something wrong is talking about the resistance, when the signal is AC, so its impedance, which brings in all the lovely inductance and capacitance fun variables.

[Beer of the Bass]

Surely inductance wouldn't be an issue unless you were using wirewound pots, which I have never seen in an instrument. Ordinary carbon pots as found in guitars and basses aren't coils, so I'd think they wouldn't behave as inductors to any great extent. I can just about imagine capacitance varying between pots of different design, but any amount of capacitance which would audibly effect your signal would also be measurable. Anyone want to try it?

Edited July 14, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[icastle]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1373821744' post='2141953']
The fact with a pot that is easily over looked is that it's also a coil and as such we can expect that there will be inductance added to the circuit. [/quote]

That's only true in the case of a wirewound pot.

Pots used in guitars are generally carbon track these days.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1373821744' post='2141953']... The fact with a [b]pot [/b]that is easily over looked is that it's also a coil and as such we can expect that there will be inductance added to the circuit....

.... So Ou7shined may be along in a mo' and tell me I'm wrong.
[/quote]

A guitar pot isn't a coil. I'm wondering if you meant pickup?

[Grangur]

I stand corrected. So I don't know what the reason for the improvement would be, but the difference was significant. So its not all on the mind.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1373892925' post='2142703']
I stand corrected. So I don't know what the reason for the improvement would be, but the difference was significant. So its not all on the mind.
[/quote]

If the difference was significant then it definitely wasn't all in your mind. There would have been a physical issue in the first instance (like the ones I touched upon before). Hey what's ace is that you fixed it and are delighted with the way it is now though.

[Ghost_Bass]

I've changed a few electronics in passive basses in the past and always could hear a difference. Normally on a P bass i would go for 500K pots from Alpha (not CTS so a bit cheaper but still with quality and good tolerance).

I really can't say that the difference in output and sound quality comes from the pot change, in fact i would bet it has more to do with replacing wires with ones with real copper inside (plastic on the outside is fine by me) and using good caps.

The only thing i could tell the difference ABing a 250k loom against a 500k loom (same kind of wire and cap in both looms) is that with the 500K you do get an extra bit of top end but the "core" sound remains unchanged.

I like the extra top bite in "my sound" so most of the times i'll go for 500K pots (and .047 or even sometimes .100 caps = Funk to Reggae in a twist ).

[cameltoe]

I'm surprised so many people are so adamant cheap wiring kits make absolutely no difference to your sound than more expensive kit.

On another thread several people doubt the tonal characteristics of wood choice too, and this seems to come up frequently. Many people are of the opinion that the wood used has absolutely nothing to do with the instruments final sound.

I'm seriously considering nailing a pair of wizards to a piece of 2 x 4 and throwing my Precisions in the bin.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1373912503' post='2143074']
I'm surprised so many people are so adamant cheap wiring kits make absolutely no difference to your sound than more expensive kit.

On another thread several people doubt the tonal characteristics of wood choice too, and this seems to come up frequently. Many people are of the opinion that the wood used has absolutely nothing to do with the instruments final sound.

I'm seriously considering nailing a pair of wizards to a piece of 2 x 4 and throwing my Precisions in the bin.
[/quote]

Hahaha, yes well it has been done before and in a blind test most people couldn't actually tell the difference between the Fender and the scrap pine (same neck, pups etc.)

One day critical mass will shift and we all will know the truth about tone woods, pots etc and people will be happily informed by physicists and technicians rather than salesmen.... I've noticed that it's already starting.