Price of flats

[Happy Jack]

Like most everything else, it's horses for courses.

I play blues, Beatles, classic rock from the 70's, country rock, Elvis. For those styles, flats on a Precision sound absolutely right.

If I was trying to slap my way through jazz/fusion on a Warwick, I guess they'd sound atrocious.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Happy Jack

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1347803943' post='1805166']
Like most everything else, it's horses for courses.

I play blues, Beatles, classic rock from the 70's, country rock, Elvis. For those styles, flats on a Precision sound absolutely right.

If I was trying to slap my way through jazz/fusion on a Warwick, I guess they'd sound atrocious.
[/quote]
If I was trying to slap my way through jazz/fusion on a Warwick, I'd sound atrocious.

[4 Strings]

Our hero, Mr Edwards, used to slap with flats. But then he could do most things on a bass quite well.

[Dingus]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1347801078' post='1805117']
This is not at all obviously true. In fact, given that roundwound strings have a spherical wrap while flatwound have a tape wrap (not exactly a 'solid bar') it seems quite possible that there's less metal in a flatwound. I expect it also varies greatly between different manufacturers.


But not all flatwounds do 'feel tighter' (i.e. compliance) nor do they all have higher tension (e.g. TI Jazz Flats).
[/quote]

I mean that they are a solid bar in appearence , as opposed to the serrated edge of a roundwound string . There is more metal in a flatwound. If you were to weigh the tape wrap of a flatwound , it would in the vast majority of cases be heavier than the same-gauge rounwound wire equivalent.
Regarding tension, there are also other factors involved in string design which can effect tension apart from mass , most obviously the ratio between core wire and outer wrap. Thomastic strings are are unique design, with a layer of cotton between core and outer wrap wire, along with other distinct design features that set them apart form most other strings. This is a big part of why they are so expensive. The vast majority of flatwound strings feel stiffer than their roundwound counterparts.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1347799975' post='1805088']
I would seriously doubt that the "extra" metal needed to make a set of flats would generate any noticeable difference in the eventual retail price.

With a relatively boutique item such as flatwound strings for bass guitars, the cost of raw materials is utterly negligible.
[/quote]

The economics of manufacturing are such that small differences in prices of raw materials can make the difference between profit and loss, and so ultimately greater costs have to be passesd on to the consumer. Look at the fluctuating price of metals on the commodities markets -try telling the large string manufacturers that the cost of these commodities is of little or no relevance to them and I expect they would have an unequivocal response.

[Panamonte]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1347799686' post='1805081']

Anyone know what 'Nard used?
[/quote]

I remember reading somewhere that when an interviewer asked him what strings he used, Bernard said something along the lines of 'Whatever strings Music Man put on their basses' - the implication being that he'd never changed them. I assumed this meant that he used very dead rounds. The story may of course be apocryphal.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1347806128' post='1805204']
I mean that they are a solid bar in appearence , as opposed to the serrated edge of a roundwound string . There is more metal in a flatwound. If you were to weigh the tape wrap of a flatwound , it would in the vast majority of cases be heavier than the same-gauge rounwound wire equivalent.
Regarding tension, there are also other factors involved in string design which can effect tension apart from mass , most obviously the ratio between core wire and outer wrap. Thomastic strings are are unique design, with a layer of cotton between core and outer wrap wire, along with other distinct design features that set them apart form most other strings. This is a big part of why they are so expensive. The vast majority of flatwound strings feel stiffer than their roundwound counterparts.
[/quote]
The only things, apart from mass (per unit length of string), that have any effect on tension are the length of the string and the pitch to which it is tuned. Tension = mass per unit length x length of string x pitch of string. That's it, nothing else.

[hubrad]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1347801078' post='1805117']
This is not at all obviously true. In fact, given that roundwound strings have a spherical wrap while flatwound have a tape wrap (not exactly a 'solid bar') it seems quite possible that there's less metal in a flatwound. I expect it also varies greatly between different manufacturers.


But not all flatwounds do 'feel tighter' (i.e. compliance) nor do they all have higher tension (e.g. TI Jazz Flats).
[/quote]

The core of the string is what dictates the tension.. there's x thickness of core and y thichness of winding; x+y=gauge of string. A thicker core with less winding will give a tighter, more powerful string, whereas a thinner core with more winding will reduce the tension but give more harmonic richness as you have a more flexible string. Different makers use different (sometimes several) mixes to achieve different sounding and feeling strings.

On Nylons.. I've used Picato black nylons on an Overwater fretless, which gives the closest thing to EUB tone I've ever got from a bass guitar.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1347808502' post='1805249']
The core of the string is what dictates the tension...
[/quote]
Tension is dependent only on mass per unit length of string (that's core [i]and[/i] windings), length of string and pitch to which the string is tuned.

[Dingus]

Perhaps there is a divergence of opinion here because of differing ideas of what is meant by tension. When I refer to tension , I mean in the pragmatic sense of how stiff the string feels and how hard or easy it is to press down , rather than measured pounds of tension. I don't have the means ( or inclination) to measure the tension in any other way than how a bass feels to play, and different brands of strings in the same gauge can feel very different. Picato roundwounds feel very stiff to me, for example, whereas Warwick Black Label feel much more pliable. It's something I am very attuned to because I hate very stiff feeling strings, and always have done. The shape of the core wire and ratio of core wire to outer wrap both effect this characteristic. Look at the diffence in feel between DR Hi Beams and Lo Riders, for example. And most mainstream brands of flats feel very, very stiff to someone used to roundwounds. It may be- I really don't know the answer- that compliance ( stiffness) and tension are not technically the same thing despite bearing some relationship to each other, hence various posters ( including me) talking at cross purposes.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Dingus

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1347811673' post='1805318']
Perhaps there is a divergence of opinion here because of differing ideas of what is meant by tension. When I refer to tension , I mean in the pragmatic sense of how stiff the string feels and how hard or easy it is to press down , rather than measured pounds of tension. I don't have the means ( or inclination) to measure the tension in any other way than how a bass feels to play, and different brands of strings in the same gauge can feel very different. Picato roundwounds feel very stiff to me, for example, whereas Warwick Black Label feel much more pliable. It's something I am very attuned to because I hate very stiff feeling strings, and always have done. The shape of the core wire and ratio of core wire to outer wrap both effect this characteristic. Look at the diffence in feel between DR Hi Beams and Lo Riders, for example. And most mainstream brands of flats feel very, very stiff to someone used to roundwounds. It may be- I really don't know the answer- that compliance ( stiffness) and tension are not technically the same thing despite bearing some relationship to each other, hence various posters ( including me) talking at cross purposes.
[/quote]
You seem to be referring to compliance (or elasticity) rather than tension:

[quote]The [i]tension[/i] of the string of a stringed musical instrument is defined completely by the pitch the string is tuned to, its vibrating length, and its mass (weight) per unit of length. This is a matter of basic physics. But there are all sorts of other quantities and qualities that are said to affect string tension. They do not, but (and this is a big but) some of these may indeed affect the [i]compliance[/i] of the string, and this will affect how tight the string feels to the player.[url="http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm"] http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm[/url] [/quote]

[apa]

This is only my theory but...............

I should imagine the cost of manufacture of flats is higher as well as the raw materials. Why? Round wire is a more standard commodity to manufacture. String manufactureres buy in thier wires not make them themselves. The supplier will be geared up and therefore cheaper to supply round wire. It will be easier to produce than flat which would probably need a secondary process to come within spec of the rectangular profile. Then in the string manufacturers the tolorance for flats would be higher than rounds. The slightest discrepency in thickness of flats would be noticable compared to rounds where any slight discrepency would be lost since your fingers are going from peak to peak. Think the difference between paving slabs (Flats) and cobbles (rounds) path. The flats need to be polished again. What you must realise is any, and I mean ANY, extra manufacturing process can be extremely expensive. You need production space and access, operator(s) and machinery and time. All of these cost money to instigate, maintain and run. This goes for both supplier and manufacturer. To sum it up. Theres a wire manufaturer somewere with a 'Flat wire machine sitting in the corner making 1000m a day. The big man in the office keeps sucking on his cigar and thinking "I could have a round wire machine sitting ther making 10,000m a day so Ill have to charge 10x as much for the flat wire to justify it"

A

NOTE: Figures stated are made up and used for effect only

[Machines]

Got Chromes on 50% of my instruments (Encore P & Yamaha RBX fretless). I love them - but wouldn't have them if I only had one bass.

Since they last so long (as long as you dont keep swapping them around to other instruments and breaking the wind like I did once !) then I think they're worth the money.

[apa]

[quote name='Machines' timestamp='1347812634' post='1805338']
Got Chromes on 50% of my instruments (Encore P & Yamaha RBX fretless). I love them - but wouldn't have them if I only had one bass.

Since they last so long (as long as you dont keep swapping them around to other instruments [b]and breaking the wind like I did once[/b] !) then I think they're worth the money.
[/quote]



A

[wateroftyne]

Lakland flats, bought directly from Lakland, are about £22-ish including shipping.

And they're fab.

[Maude]

You should be able to get a set of Chromes for around £25 which I wouldn't say is particularly expensive.
That's them on my P bass in my avatar and they sound awesome. On their own you may think they're a bit muddy sounding but as soon as you play in a mix most of the top end that makes a bass sound nice by itself is lost to the guitars anyway. These sound just perfect.

[risingson]

I don't know why they're more expensive than roundwounds, probably more to do with them being a bit more 'specialist' and presumably the string companies know that they can charge a bit more. I don't buy that it's more metal being used or them lasting longer or anything like that. The reason I use flatwounds on my P-Bass is to get that flatwound 'thump' and decreased finger noise that make recording solid bass parts in the studio a breeze, but I don't buy them because they're versatile strings that fit every situation.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1347799686' post='1805081']
I wanted to try them on my Stingray
[/quote]

You have a PM.

best,
bert

[risingson]

I've just ordered some Status Hotwires for my P-Bass after I saw one or two people waxing lyrical about them on here. The price was certainly right, only as much as I'd pay for rounds so if they're any good I'll make sure I let everyone know!

[AntLockyer]

I've got Labella flats on my P bass and it sounds ridiculous. I've been playing my Aria recently and have only had the Fender unplugged for brief moment. Plugged it in tonight and thump thump thump swing

[ead]

[quote name='BarnacleBob' timestamp='1347797246' post='1805029']
Thinking of sticking a set of flats on my old 79 Overwater with twin HBs, any recommendations?
It has a bit of a dead spot, would this help or hinder that issue or make no difference?

BB

ps no experience of flats whatsoever so far
[/quote]

Can't help with the dead spot issue, but the Fender 9050s get good press here although I've not tried them myself yet. I've enjoyed using Picato flats on a fretted bass too, although at the moment I'm using TI JF345s on my fretted 5-string and the corresponding JF344 on my fretless.

[alstocko]

I don't like that flats can cost much more than your standard rounds, but it's about production like has been said before. As much as it may appear on this forum that they are very popular, in the wide world, there is a larger ratio of round players to flats.
While I'm here, I've been using labellas on a jazz for a while, but I got rid of it, and I've almost finished my PJ build. Anybody got any flats that they swear by on PJs?

[Simon.]

I've got bog-standard Rotosound 77s on my Bitsa PJ, and I'm loving them. I first started using flats on a fretless jazz about 9 years ago, and even though said jazz has now morphed into the Bitsa PJ (and is a much better bass for it!), I’ve no intention of changing back. I still have rounds on my P-Lyte, as like the tone better for chords and tapping stuff, which I sometimes noodle around with, but for everything else, it's been flats for years.

I started out using Rotos as there wasn't much selection in the shops around Edinburgh and the price was high enough even for them. Worryingly though, from what I can gleam from various threads on here regarding flats, it seems that the Rotos are considered fairly high tension strings ... and yet I often feel when playing that they are almost too lose for me! The E stringespecially. I don't think I play with a heavy touch.

Maybe I should shell out for something different to do a 'compare & contrast'?