Creating a big (12 string) sound with a 4 string bass

[warwickhunt]

I've started a Cheap Trick tribute band and as I presently don't have a 12 string (and if the results of this experiment work, I may not need one), I'm looking at recreating the Tom Petersson 12 string sound using what I presently own or that can be acquired with a moderate outlay.

Initial attempts involve me putting a 4 string into my Thunderfunk/Aguilar rig and taking a line out from there into a Boss Octave then Boss Chorus pedal then feeding that signal into the front end of my Tech 21 Trademark 60 (60w 1x12) guitar combo. I've also tried plugging into a BBE acoustic preamp and splitting the signal from that into the (dry) bass rig and (wet) guitar rig; the only benefit is that I have a floor mounted mute function so I'm not sure until I do a full blooded rehearsal on Tuesday which will likely sound best.

The reason for splitting the signal (not bi-amped) is so that I can retain the punch of the fundamental bass sound but add the extra 'chime' from the octaves and chorus through an amp that will add some top end.

My question is... has anyone else attempted something similar and is there an alternative that I may be overlooking that I can do with my present rig or something that I can purchase that will get me a close to a 12 string sound?

Obviously I could go for a cheap 12 (I have sourced a Dean Rhapsody 12) but I'm unsure whether to go for that or hold out and see if the band works and hopefully find the real deal, say a Hamer or Waterstone TP bass.

Musings of a madman!

[Happy Jack]

Try putting the signal through an Akai Unibass first. That will split off an extra signal an octave higher (plus either a 5th up or a 4th down if you want it) without affecting the main signal as it heads towards the Octaver.

[Mykesbass]

Completely bonkers, but then I love a touch of eccentricity!

Don't know how much use this will be, but a few years back I saw The Pretenders at a smallish gig in Kings Cross. Adam Seymour produced, to my ears, an exceptional 12 string guitar sound, but having just looked at his rig there was no chorus, just vibrato and reverb.

http://vintage.guitargeek.com/rigview/332/

Obviously going to be very different for bass but food for thought none the less.

If you do get it up and running, remember from a previous thread, I have a local shop with a reasonably priced copy of Neilsen's guitar!!

[Rumple]

Just a thought but a touch of delay to the octave above signals might help create the thickening effect by mimicking the minute gap between strings being played on a real 12 string.

[RhysP]

The Dean Rhapsody 12ver is a pretty good bass, and will get you a lot closer to the sound you want than any amount of messing around with pedals IMO.

[51m0n]

Chorus is a delay based modulation effect, in order to make it thicker set its delay longer, too long and it will sound like your octave up strings are actually out of time though.

Set the modulation either slow and deeper, or fast and shallow - I'd expect the fast and shallow to be able to addd some real 'shimmer' to the sound.

Dont overdo the overdrive on the guitar amp, but a little bit of it should help hide the pitch shift artifacts and bring out the harmonics beautifully.

Dont biamp, after all a 12 string bass has full range bottom strings.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1321700548' post='1442069']
Completely bonkers, but then I love a touch of eccentricity!

Don't know how much use this will be, but a few years back I saw The Pretenders at a smallish gig in Kings Cross. Adam Seymour produced, to my ears, an exceptional 12 string guitar sound, but having just looked at his rig there was no chorus, just vibrato and reverb.

[url="http://vintage.guitargeek.com/rigview/332/"]http://vintage.guita...om/rigview/332/[/url]

Obviously going to be very different for bass but food for thought none the less.

If you do get it up and running, remember from a previous thread, I have a local shop with a reasonably priced copy of Neilsen's guitar!!
[/quote]

The Alesis quadraverb has a great sounding chorus in it, alongside, reverb, delay, leslie, eq and I cant remember what else. The chorus could certainly well have been a part of the patch he was using, as well as some careful detuning in the pitch shifting.

[warwickhunt]

Cheers one and all. I don't have a Akai Unibass but I have an Akai Headrush which has delay so I may try inserting that into the signal path.

The Dean is tempting BUT if this does take off I may want something more authentic to TP's basses and in the meantime a big thick sound from my existing gear means that I can concentrate on the songs and harmonies (lead vocal on a couple of songs that TP does) and not on learning to cope with 12 strings.

Mad as a box of frogs but good fun!

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1321699627' post='1442046']
something that I can purchase that will get me a close to a 12 string sound?[/quote]
EHX Micro pog? £150 with a dry out, mixable up, down and dry. TBH, it sounds a bit - er - electronic to me, but ymmv
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Ef0-gTIjo[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNZH6fvrgh0[/media]

Edited November 19, 2011 by skankdelvar

[BigRedX]

As an 8-string player (and 12 string guitar) myself, I don't think that effects will ever recreate exactly the same sound you get from an instrument with multi-string courses.

However this is how I'd try it:

Split the bass signal 2 ways.

Feed one into your bass amp with your favoured bass sound - That's the sound of the main strings.

Feed the other into your octave up device. You don't want a perfect octave up but detuned by a very small amount. Output the octave up signal only.
Depending on how fast the processing of the octave up signal is you might not need to add any further delay. If you do you only want to add delayed signal. (This is where your simulation falls down since the delayed string alternates between the "root" and octave strings depending on whether you are picking up-strokes or down-strokes).
Add some chorus and feed this to your guitar amp.

Finally having tried most of 8 and 12 string basses that are easily available in this country I couldn't in all honesty recommend any of the Dean offerings unless it was very cheap second hand.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1321706908' post='1442194']
As an 8-string player (and 12 string guitar) myself, I don't think that effects will ever recreate exactly the same sound you get from an instrument with multi-string courses.

However this is how I'd try it:

Split the bass signal 2 ways.

Feed one into your bass amp with your favoured bass sound - That's the sound of the main strings.

Feed the other into your octave up device. You don't want a perfect octave up but detuned by a very small amount. Output the octave up signal only.
Depending on how fast the processing of the octave up signal is you might not need to add any further delay. If you do you only want to add delayed signal. (This is where your simulation falls down since the delayed string alternates between the "root" and octave strings depending on whether you are picking up-strokes or down-strokes).
Add some chorus and feed this to your guitar amp.

Finally having tried most of 8 and 12 string basses that are easily available in this country I couldn't in all honesty recommend any of the Dean offerings unless it was very cheap second hand.
[/quote]

Big Red X has hit the nail on the head. As an 8 and a 12 bass string player myself, I can say you'll never get a good 12 string sound through using a 4 and effects. You'll get a mediocre one but that's up yourself.

As for getting a Dean. Just don't. I toyed with getting one, but decided against it after I played one. The reasons were simple. It's rubbish. However, on a less subjective level, the preamp is weak and just won't give you the chime you need from a 12 (or an 8 for that matter), and it has one of the widest 12 string necks I've ever played. Almost like a 6 string bass. By the time you get to the 12th fret you'd need hands like shovels to play it. Sod that.

Ultimately, you get what you pay for. The Dean's are cheap for a reason. Which is that they're total pony. The Hamer I've got is really good, but you won't get a new one in the UK thanks to Fender insanely suggesting that the Chaparral is "too similar" to other Fender products. Come again?!! However, for that reason, you'll only get a 2nd hand one. I tried a Waterstone and that was rather good too. However the semi acoustic nature of it could be a problem for some and £1300 to spend on either of these is a lot of cash for what could go on to become a very expensive doorstop if the band doesn't work out.

[yorick]

[b]Can I throw the Hagstrom HB8 into the ring?[/b]

[12stringbassist]

Pedals really won't do it. Get the Dean. I have a Dean Rhapsody 8-string and it's very good.
If you decide to go the whole hog for a Hamer 12er later, avoid the Chapparal, go for an older ACTIVE B12 / B12A. They exist.

Best source of info - [url="http://www.12stringbass.net/"]http://www.12stringbass.net/[/url]

Edited November 19, 2011 by 12stringbassist

[12stringbassist]

Also - your rig will need to cope with it.
You would probably know TP has the luxury of three outputs, 3 wireless systems
and 3 rigs onstage to cover all frequencies.

I just use this lot whenever there's space - does the job nicely at low volume.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1321719170' post='1442390']
Also - your rig will need to cope with it.
You would probably know TP has the luxury of three outputs, 3 wireless systems
and 3 rigs onstage to cover all frequencies.

I just use this lot whenever there's space - does the job nicely at low volume.
[/quote]

I'm discovering the limitations of my first attempt at amplification... my (dry) bass rig + (wet) guitar combo isn't working when I wind the wick up.

As the 12" speaker in the guitar combo is getting the full range signal from my bass + effects (inc' the Boss Octave which is reproducing octaves 'below' what I play) it is complaining as soon as start to go past living room level. Damn!

It looks like to even run this until I source a suitable 12 I'll need to split the signal and send only the highs to the effects/guitar combo. Shame as I've bypassed the guitar combo and sent the full effected signal to my TF/Aguilar and it sounds BIG!

[12stringbassist]

If you put your bass signals (treated and untreated) into the PA and get it to sound right,
then you are then really only limited as to what you can hear onstage.

I'd go for an **active** 12er and a mix of 10 / 15" speakers.

[color=#ff0000][b]The Dean Rhapsody is active.[/b][/color]

Edited November 19, 2011 by 12stringbassist

[12stringbassist]

[RhysP]

Dug Pinnick from Kings X used to run his Hamer 8 & 12 strings via a crossover that split the frequencies, the highs going to a Fender Twin guitar combo & the lows to an SVT stack.

Edited November 19, 2011 by RhysP

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1321719170' post='1442390']
You would probably know TP has the luxury of three outputs, 3 wireless systems
and 3 rigs onstage to cover all frequencies.
[/quote]

re. TP's rig - I remember reading about it back in the late 70's and even back then I wondered about the thought process behind it, I know it works for him and he's had plenty time/money/opportunity to refine it BUT... He has 3 outputs (one from each pick-up) going to various rigs but no signal splitter for frequencies (at least that I am aware of); I accept that sending any one of those pups to a bass rig is fine (he sends the neck I believe), however, he sends the bridge (and possibly middle iirc) pup to a guitar rig (is it a VOX AC30). Now by my reckoning no matter the fact that it is going from the bridge pup, it is not filtering all of the bass/low notes so his guitar set-up is still getting all of the lows that the bass rig is getting! Does that make sense? In essence I could understand if he had some magic system (I say 'magic' because it can't physically be done) that the neck pup 'heard' the bass strings and the other two pups 'heard' the guitar/octave strings but that can't happen. Just my musings on TP's rig which I know still works but doesn't strictly make scientific sense.

[12stringbassist]

I think a lot of what Tom does is, shall we say, 'experimental' and a lot of it is for show (tbh).
The spillage from string impact between the pickups surely negates the individual outputs.
there is no way to separate signal from the bass strings and drone strings. As soon as you
get hold of a 12er, you'll see that. It's the same as a 12 string guitar.

He is certainly going to be able to fine tune his sound between the rigs, but I reckon you can
get a great overall sound with what i have, without resorting to an arena size bass rig!.

He uses the Rickenbacker cabinet and Reeves / Hi Watts.
I think the AC30's are Robin's.

Edited November 19, 2011 by 12stringbassist

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1321721852' post='1442438']
The spillage from string impact between the pickups surely negates the individual outputs.
[/quote]

That was my thoughts.

[12stringbassist]

Of all the Gibson cabs Rick uses, only one is ever mic'd up.
When they came to the UK last year, there was actually a set of normal Marshall 4x12's (probably hired)
with a covering sheet in front that made it look like he was using the checkerboard rig.

[warwickhunt]

Yes I noticed that on youtube, makes for an easy make-over for us on stage as well!

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1321718903' post='1442384']
Pedals really won't do it. Get the Dean. I have a Dean Rhapsody 8-string and it's very good.
If you decide to go the whole hog for a Hamer 12er later, avoid the Chapparal, go for an older ACTIVE B12 / B12A. They exist.

Best source of info - [url="http://www.12stringbass.net/"]http://www.12stringbass.net/[/url]
[/quote]

The Hamer B12L that I've got is active as well though I think that the Waterstone is passive. If you can get a Dean for £200-300, it's probably worth it as you can always gut it. I still think that all the Dean basses I've tried have been pants, but it's all subjective.

I saw a B12A on Ebay the other week. I seem to recall it was £2600. Ouch.

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1321723910' post='1442467']
I think that the Waterstone is passive.
[/quote]

The Waterstone is passive, yes. I was thinking about putting a John East in at one stage, but didn't. I was giving some consideration to putting in some different pickups too (102mmx38mm), but have no idea what would fit...despite the sound being fairly big, the stock pickups are a bit tame.
P