band issues

[jackers]

So, after a week away on holiday with my dad, I come back to band practice to find them all (but mostly one of the guitarists) talking about all these agreements to have a minimum of a months notice if someone can't make a practice for any reason, and how the band should come before almost everything else. I understand wanting to get somewhere, but this seems excessive to me.

Now to give you an idea of where the band is, we have 7 or 8 finished songs, and have played 5 gigs in 6 months.

I told them it is far too soon to be talking about all this stuff, and that at the moment it is far more important to concentrate on writing, playing a few more gigs, and most of all having fun. this was received fairly badly, with the aforementioned guitarist telling me I am not dedicated and don't take it seriously. (as a note, it's takes me just under 3 hours on public transport to get to practice, and I can't afford a car, I would say that shows at least a small level of dedication.)

would you say they are being a bit silly, or am I in the wrong?

[Kiwi]

I'd suggest its all circulating around forming values for the band.

It might well be that the idea is a solution to a percieved problem. If you, as a band member and presumably someone with an equal say in things, think that its a bit of overkill then I suggest have an honest, calm discussion with your band mates.

Use phrases that start with 'I feel...' and then articulate what is on your mind. Your bandmates can't deny the validity of your feelings, only how the way you perceive things compares to how they perceive things. Its all about perceptions.

Ask them whether they see a problem in the band, Try and clarify whether their solution is to a problem that they see is happening or whether its a solution to a problem that hasn't happened yet.

Is one individual trying to impose their values on the band without giving enough respect to the values of the other members? Can you accept those values?

You might find there's some room to negotiate. If anyone decides they're not going to negotiate then it makes your choices a little clearer.

[Lozz196]

I think with regards to any reason for not being able to make a rehearsal, it should be communicated to the rest of the band straightaway, and that`s all that is needed. a months notice - how does that work?

You get offered tickets to see your fave band next week, and your own band doesn`t have a gig booked for another 14 weeks - not a particular problem, as far as I can see if you don`t make rehearsal next week.

A family member gets ill/is involved in an accident - they`re not going to give a months notice on this.

I don`t see it being workable, however, from the flip side of the coin, and having been in the postion where a band memmbers wife/girlfriend only ever seemed to want him to go out with her on nights when there is a rehearsal or gig booked, maybe this is either a pre-emptive exercise, or it`s perceived as already happening, and they want it to stop.

I don`t think travelling for 3 hours shows a lack of dedication - I know I wouldn`t do it, well done for that kind of committment.

[JTUK]

I think they need to grow up.

When the band has someting that justifies a highl level of commitment then you can put a few pointers in place, but not for a handful of songs and gigs and the position you are in atm.

[bertbass]

Something I've found that works in most situations in life is to say OK and then carry on as normal and when a few months down the line you are reminded of your OK just say, OK, sorry I forgot. Works every time.

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1316679183' post='1381193']
Something I've found that works in most situations in life is to say OK and then carry on as normal and when a few months down the line you are reminded of your OK just say, OK, sorry I forgot. Works every time.
[/quote]

Mmm, dunno. That may be pragmatic, but [b]if it was me[/b], I'd feel I was being a little dishonest taking that approach.

I like CK's open approach, and I think he goes right to the heart of it when he says it's all about a problem that's not yet been stated (not here at least). The requirement for 1 months notice looks to me like a solution to a problem, so it's important to back-track and find out the problem that it solves. When you know the problem, you may find there's a different solution. If no-one can state the problem, then you're either with a bunch of people who can't think or reason adequately (highly unlikely), or they're hiding something from you, or someone is being a dictator, and as CK says, that will make your choices a bit clearer

Jackers, I've been through this kind of situation at work recently (asked to do something (apply a solution) with no backing reason (the underlying problem)) and it was frustrating, so I feel for you.

Andy

[Musicman20]

I think, from my experience, that bands usually have a few members with delusions of grandeur. My ex band is the same. The guitarist THINKS they are going to make it big in the underground punk/hardcore scene. Note I said 'underground' which basically means if they did, they would be flavour of the month for a while, then the next band on soundcloud would take the helm.

The guitarist who I speak of has been a close friend of mine for 15 years or more, and we seriously fell out over it. I am mature enough to know you HAVE to work, and work comes first unless you are a professional band getting PAID. If not, then its a fun hobby, and as long as you dont ruin your career, the band can take up as much time as you want it to.

For me, I can practice once a month with a band, and a few times at home a week to my ipod, and be happy to gig. Original bands that practice every week and never gig are just wasting time IME, and hardly ever make it.

That was quite a rant, I do apologise. Stand your ground. I did, and im glad I did,because months down the line, Ive watched them lose members one by one. They have been going for 6 years, and their early days were always the best. Now? I think its time for them all to move on, and try something new and refreshing.

[geoffbyrne]

The dangers of not having an agreed leader & for thinking that democracy in a band is 'a good thing'.

I suppose I'll be in the minority, but I like there to be a clear leader - someone who listens to everyone's point of view then makes a decision in the best interest of the group. In fact, I don't mind it if he's the paymaster too.

The bands I've been in that worked best had one guy as boss (usually but not always the singer) who organised pretty much everything & more or less employed the other members. You stayed with the band because it suited you. If you didn't like they way it worked, fair enough, you moved on.

However, giving 4 weeks notice for non-attendance is silly & impractible, and the band does *not* come before everything else (unless, maybe, you're a pro who makes his living from it). And the fact that you are travelling for 3 hours on public transport should be recognised as a rare form of dedication on its own!!!

Are you sure they're not trying to give you the push?

G.

Edited September 22, 2011 by geoffbyrne

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1316683162' post='1381259']
I suppose I'll be in the minority, but I like there to be a clear leader - someone who listens to everyone's point of view then makes a decision in the best interest of the group. In fact, I don't mind it if he's the paymaster too.
[/quote]

I've no fixed ideas on whether either having a clear leader or by contrast completely democracy is the best thing ... it all depends on context. What I would expect in either scenario, though, is a clear respect for other people, and that includes being open about the reasoning behind rules like '1 month notice for band practice changes'.

Edited September 22, 2011 by BigBeatNut

[seashell]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1316679183' post='1381193']
Something I've found that works in most situations in life is to say OK and then carry on as normal and when a few months down the line you are reminded of your OK just say, OK, sorry I forgot. Works every time.
[/quote]

Have I ever been out with you?

[mike257]

It seems a bit over the top for a young band finding their feet. I've probably been in bands where the same kind of thing has been said when I was younger - as soon as some people get a handful of gigs under their belt, they think that's it and they're going straight up to the big time.

Has anyone in the band been regularly cancelling/missing practices? There needs to be a degree of flexibility and everyone, even the most serious pro-level bands, has lives outside of the practice room - jobs, studies, families, relationships - and turning up to practice can't [i]always[/i] be the sole most important thing, even when you want it to be. I've got a full time job, two kids (and another on the way) and I also do band transport in my big van, there's plenty of occasions where I've had to move things round and as a band, we just accomodate each other.

We're in the practice room twice a week, but if we have to miss the odd one, we aren't going to suddenly suck. I think your guitarist friend needs to take a step back and get some perspective on things. If one person regularly causes a problem, then it might need addressing with them, but if it's just real life occasionally getting in the way, then that's something he'll have to get used to!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1316674216' post='1381135']When the band has someting that justifies a highl level of commitment then you can put a few pointers in place, but not for a handful of songs and gigs and the position you are in atm.[/quote]

On the other hand, how are you going to get more songs finished and book more gigs if you are struggling to organise rehearsals?

I can appreciate where your band are coming from - it can be frustrating trying to book rehearsals, either because the band can't all find common dates they're free or by the time they agree a date all the rehearsal rooms within 25 miles are already booked up. The more you can formalise this or make it more regular the better.

If someone regularly can't make it then either you've picked a bad time for that person to rehearse or that person is a bit pathetic and flaky. Working out which is easy, but the flaky people tend to talk about themselves as being 'committed' in my experience. Not saying this is you, just that agreeing to regular band activities and sticking to those agreements is a really important part of making a band fun and successful.

[bassatnight]

From my experience over some 25 years of being in various bands, making ground rules is a real no no, having said that you must all be signing from the same hymn sheet. You need to ask yourself what you want and where you see the band going. It sounds to me like the band or at least one member see's you as a weak link, the fact this rule was cooked up in your absence and without your agreement seems a little convienent and harsh.

Ask yourself what you want from a band and if the current band do not meet your goals then leave and start your own from scratch and ensure your new band mates have similar goals and targets to you.

[Bigwan]

I'd ask if they planned to dock your wages if you couldn't make it one night... Sounds like a load of inpractical w*** to me. The fact this was agreed without you present show what they think about your say in the band. Compared to the bands achievements so far I'd say someone has ideas above their station - It's something that seems to happen quite a lot in my experience. Being challenged about your level of commitment is probably the only defence that could be mustered to your challenge of the policy's validity. You show your level of commitment every time you turn up with the travelling you're doing - you should remind them of that.

This sort of thing ruins bands for me. If it were me I'd remind them that it's supposed to be fun, not a job (in most cases anyway) and say ta ta... Can't stand this sort of underhand w***ery. Reminds me too much of being at work!

[algmusic]

In my teens and early twenties, I joined original bands, but at the same time I realised that you can make money from being a musician, but it's much harder to make money from a an original band, so my ideas changed when I hit 20. Since then I earned money playing either drums or bass freelance or as a session musician and joined an original band.

The original project I joined that were seen a hobby and the paid gigs/sessions was seen as my 'job' or work. The last band I was in, I spent a 1/2 full days a week writing was great fun and I learnt alot about writing and working with others, we actually got very close and even worked and wrote with Roland Orzabal from Tear for Fears. However, it really wasn't pulling in money, so this meant that my 'job' would have to come first. The lead singer sometimes said I wasn't 'committed' to the band as I was always gigging and it took him a long to separate the band from my gigs. However, as time past he soon realised the experience 'working' actually made me better musician and much more of a positive influence on the band.

The long and short of it, is you need to think:

What you want from the band?
what you want to give?

Once I decided this, I was happy, if the band isn't happy with you feelings on this, then you find another band.

There are a lot of bands out there and 99% won't get signed however, I don't think people shouldn't give up the dream, but make sure you have an idea of your future. I don't regret any time I gave to those bands, it helped me be a better musician and most of all, I had fun, but at the same time I knew when to leave, so I wouldn't get frustrated when I knew the band weren't gonna get signed and we should just enjoy the gigs and write.

On the band leader vs democracy.. It all lies on who is writing the material. If you have one person writing the songs by themselves at home then the rest of the band add bits here and there, it's quite obvious. If the band writes everything, then democracy is better, but usually a natural leader will emerge just help steer it. If the singer is writing everything and you're just turning up, he can't expect you to be there as much as him as you're really playing his songs, not the bands

[jackers]

cheers for all the replies guys it's nice to know I'm not crazy for thinking that way, haha.

there was no reason given for the one month thing, so I think that was just the guitarist being an egotistical dick and assuming none of the rest of us have lives or future plans. personally I'm about to start a phd at Oxford, so I have plenty to look forward to this year

I think what happened is that a couple of them decided that they are going to be famous, and so they are using the rest of us to push that. (I.e. didn't try at school, have no qualifications, and just wanna play guitar all day).

I had a chat with the singer, who is one of my best friends, and we agreed that if I wasn't happy then there is no point me wasting time and money on something I don't wanna do. afterall I play for fun and as a nice hobby, I have a phd to do so I can't go all in like they seem to want.

I explained this to the guitarist, who could only say 'fine', then wondered off.

so it's off to find a more relaxed group of people for me

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1316691887' post='1381461']
I explained this to the guitarist, who could only say 'fine', then wondered off.
[/quote]

He may not have said much, but actually, that speaks volumes

[geoffbyrne]

See my last comment.

It's cr@p.

I have to say, there's nothing so fragile as a band.

It really all hangs together on personalities. If you can get the right set of people together, then it all works, whether they are good or intermediate players - what matters is a desire to *support* each other to the best of their ability.

We're in the middle of this - we have a great singer, a great sax player, a drummer who has come on in leaps & bounds and - I like to think - a decent bassist. We can't seem to get a compitent guitarist who will actually LEARN & play the tracks we want to do - they all want to jam them their way & quite honestly, they all turn out sounding much the same (we play Blues).

By the sound of it, this maneouver was contrived, and it stinks. I'm really sorry - a rotten way to move on.

G.

Edited September 22, 2011 by geoffbyrne

[Kiwi]

I agree with BigBeatNut, sounds like you've just saved yourself a whole load of hassle and lost potentially very little. People who take the business too seriously before it takes them seriously usually end up disillusioned, frustrated and generally a bit obnoxious. They invest too much of how they value themselves in their music and not enough in themselves as whole people with a range of needs and values. So when the business overlooks their band, they take it personally...like they as people are being ignored, rather that what is being played. Next thing you know, they can't handle the rejection and take it out on the band mates...

[mep]

Hey, at least you didn't have to give a months notice to quit the band!

Good luck in your next project.

Edited September 22, 2011 by mep

[geoffbyrne]

[quote name='mep' timestamp='1316693815' post='1381519']
Hey, at leat you didn't have to give a months notice to quit the band!
[/quote]


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

G.

[jackers]

[quote name='mep' timestamp='1316693815' post='1381519']
Hey, at leat you didn't have to give a months notice to quit the band!
[/quote]

ahahahaha! this actually made my day! thank you good sir

[Musicman20]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1316691887' post='1381461']
I think what happened is that a couple of them decided that they are going to be famous, and so they are using the rest of us to push that. (I.e. didn't try at school, have no qualifications, and just wanna play guitar all day).

[/quote]

Youve hit the nail on the head there. Plenty of bands Ive been in have average guitarists who think its their last chance of having a 'life', because they didnt bother with a career as that 'aint rock n roll'.

My career comes 100% before everything because ive spent 5-6 years studying, waiting, applying for work in the field, and being patient.

If people make good money being a session player, good on them I say! But, it would have to be super regular work for me as Id worry about money.

Enjoy your PHD...perhaps join a good covers band who barely need to practice because they are ready to gig now.

[geoffbyrne]

Good luck with it anyway, & I hope you find something that suits you.

G.

[mcnach]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1316662459' post='1381104']
So, after a week away on holiday with my dad, I come back to band practice to find them all (but mostly one of the guitarists) talking about all these agreements to have a minimum of a months notice if someone can't make a practice for any reason, and how the band should come before almost everything else. I understand wanting to get somewhere, but this seems excessive to me.

Now to give you an idea of where the band is, we have 7 or 8 finished songs, and have played 5 gigs in 6 months.

I told them it is far too soon to be talking about all this stuff, and that at the moment it is far more important to concentrate on writing, playing a few more gigs, and most of all having fun. this was received fairly badly, with the aforementioned guitarist telling me I am not dedicated and don't take it seriously. (as a note, it's takes me just under 3 hours on public transport to get to practice, and I can't afford a car, I would say that shows at least a small level of dedication.)

would you say they are being a bit silly, or am I in the wrong?
[/quote]


I'd smile politely and nod.
Then wait until the guitarist needs to cancel the week before (which in my books is ok, if you have to cancel and give a few days notice I'm happy) and observe. That kind of rule is not practical, it would never work.

I also did a PhD, and now work... and I did a hell of a lot of other things meanwhile, just like I'm doing now. I don't see that as an abostacle to quit a band that quite frankly is not busy at all. I'd have probably stayed (if I liked the company and the music) and continued to have fun. You can't make plans to "make it" when you've just started writing songs, who knows what's going to happen?

But if it doesn't bother you so much to quit that band, I guess you were not really enjoying it. Find another that's more fun. Musicians can be funny specimens of the human race. Wanna-be musicians even more so. Be prepared to walk out of bands and don't waste time with those that you don't truly enjoy (at least as long as there's not money involved... once we get paid, priorities can change a bit )
Being able to say no is very important. It took me a while to learn, but the minute I started to say no, I started finding a lot more people and eventually I find myself surrounded by great guys in two different bands.

It's got to be fun (if it's not a job)