Song Tunings and my 4 Bass 'mare!!

[grunge666]

I'm in a bit of a dilemma with my basses at the minute and this may be a rhetorical question to be honest.

I'm having to take 4 of my 5 four strings to gigs due to the tunings of the songs we're doing.

We do rock covers but, try and nail them as close to the originals as we can (with great success I might add! )

The tunings are Pitch, Eb, D & C.

I tend not to drop a string tuning - just the whole bass

I hate 5 strings and there's no time to retune between songs (+ it looks a bit cack!).

I can't see a way out of taking all the planks along - At a gig on Saturday we did 40 mins and I had to change basses 3 times! Madness.

I'm trying to convince myself that this is fine - "I've got the basses, may as well use them" but, is a pain in the ar$e to be fair.

Anyone else have this problem or anyone got any suggestions?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[Green Alsatian]

Would it not be possible to transpose/learn the lines on your 5-string? When I used to jam with a mate and we did Eb tuning on some Thin Lizzy songs, my Jazz would buzz to buggery as I was using light strings. I started bringing a 5-string and transposed, playing from the Eb on the B-string.

[Dropzone]

I tune on the fly and transpose as well. One song I tune A, Ef, A Df, Gf.

I would recommend getting a fiver and getting used to the change. You could also bung a capo on?

[Doddy]

Why do you need to use all those different tunings?

[Truckstop]

Yeah ^
I thought vocalists picked a key they were comfortable with (seemingly out of their arses) and then you transpose songs to that one key?
And is it really that much of a pain in the arse to tune inbetween songs? Do the songs in your setlist require different tunings for each and every song? Maybe have a look at how the setlist is constructed, because I'll admit, tuning on stage looks unprofessional (well, more so than a guitar change), but again, multiple guitar changes can look a little pretentious if you're not U2 or a band of equal stature.
Or if you don't like using 5 strings, tune a 4 string BEAD and learn the songs using that tuning a find a way to do without the G?
Or, if you're not a rock band, you could get away with just using the higher octave Eb, D, C?

Truckstop

[dc2009]

a) Have the whole band transpose the songs into 2 or ideally 1 tuning(s), and just play them transposed
b. Have your one bass tuned in the lowest of the 4 and transpose your playing - or similarly just do this for enough of the songs so you're only having to take 2
c) Find a 5 string you like, and all your problems are solved

got I hate the b followed by a bracket thing

Edited August 11, 2011 by dc2009

[Commando Jack]

The way I see it you can:

-Transpose and use an octave pedal (although I don't know if they'll go down that low?)

-Learn to use a 5er

-Try a MIDI bass system that lets you change the tuning, although I don't know much about these systems

or

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1336715' date='Aug 11 2011, 05:06 PM']Or if you don't like using 5 strings, tune a 4 string BEAD and learn the songs using that tuning a find a way to do without the G?

Truckstop[/quote]

I would also maybe think about how the set list is set up. For instance we tend to lump our drop D songs together. If there is an interval, could you put songs with different tunings after that and retune quickly just before you go back on? Might save you a bass...

[chris_b]

What numbers are you playing that need 4 5 string basses?

[bobbass4k]

I'd say you don't a seperate bass for D standard and Drop C, I tune between them all the time and i've never had any problems. You probably don't need seperate one for E standard an Eb standard either, half a pitch isn't a whole lot, there shouldn't be any tuning issues or neck wear unless you do it a hell of a lot.

If the problem is tuning time, i'd say just tune faster, or have stuff going on between songs, we used to retune a lot and we'd set little loops or noisescapes going beteen songs.

[PerfectionBG]

My friend at school had this dilemma, he also had the issue that one of the basses he switched to was short-scale and would break the flow of his playing, what with different fingering and what not, although he enjoyed the fact he could get the tones right on his basses at practice and if he was careful then they'd sound tidy in the mix when he played live without a second set-up pre-gig.

And obviously showing off his range of basses..

He eventually had the funds available for a 5er and uses that much more now - but he wasn't too happy with having to re-learn his set for the sake of his new bass. Didn't get much use until they changed their set-list. Just asked him what he thinks of the change now, he reckons it was worth it, but still takes 3 basses to gigs - just in case (OTT if you ask me).

(Note: He was in a metal band, so had a Drop-C, Standard and Half-Step)

[Len_derby]

Maybe I'm missing something here, please excuse me if I am.
I've always played my basses in standard tuning (apart from a brief time depping in a metal band where everyone down-tuned a semi-tone). Whatever the key of the song is, I play it on the bass in standard tuning. Obviously, for some keys e.g Eb on a 4 string, the root note isn't going to be very 'low'. But with the appropriate EQ settings and right hand technique I think it sounds OK. As Truckstop says, the key often gets chosen to best suit the vocals (or instrument, like brass or woodwind).
So, is it the desire for 'low' notes, perhaps for heavier music, that's driving this?

[thodrik]

I would suggest it would cause a lot less bother to either play all the 'standardish' songs at either concert pitch or using 'E flat' standard tuning. If nothing else it allow the gig to have more of a flow and would mean that there would not be constant changes of instruments/tunings for each song, which I find to be a pain when watching gigs/ At least then you could get down to 2 four string basses, one in standard/E flat and one in D, where you could probably use for drop C tuning when needed.

Failing that if the style of music is such that you don't need a 'tight' low D or C, you could just downtune the E on the standard four string. I used to do this before I changed to fives, but I was using using fairly hefty strings for standard tuning anyway (50-110 roundwounds, I just liked the tone).

The benefits are that you can get the low note that 9 times out of ten 'will do' for the purposes of a particular song and you only have to tune one string rather than four. The annoying bit is that basically you have to transpose the song and get to grips with sometimes strange fingering, meaning that you have think through your parts a bit. Also compared to a good B of a five string, the sound is not going to be as tight.

[mcnach]

[quote name='grunge666' post='1336457' date='Aug 11 2011, 02:19 PM']I'm in a bit of a dilemma with my basses at the minute and this may be a rhetorical question to be honest.

I'm having to take 4 of my 5 four strings to gigs due to the tunings of the songs we're doing.

We do rock covers but, try and nail them as close to the originals as we can (with great success I might add! )

The tunings are Pitch, Eb, D & C.

I tend not to drop a string tuning - just the whole bass

I hate 5 strings and there's no time to retune between songs (+ it looks a bit cack!).

I can't see a way out of taking all the planks along - At a gig on Saturday we did 40 mins and I had to change basses 3 times! Madness.

I'm trying to convince myself that this is fine - "I've got the basses, may as well use them" but, is a pain in the ar$e to be fair.

Anyone else have this problem or anyone got any suggestions?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.[/quote]



I regularly play a set containing songs that I need to downtune to D and Eb.
I never ever downtune the whole bass. I have a Hipshot bass extender ("d-tuner") on most of the basses I gig. So I play as usual, flick a lever for the dropD (do you really need to downtune the other 3 strings?), and again go to dropD when I need the Eb... in one song the fingering gets a bit awkward as it would ideally be played using a an open Eb, but with a bit of care/practice I can play it fine.

Even without the d-tuner gizmo, detuning/tuning takes very little time, as it is only one string.

I am surprised you need to down tune *all* of the strings, quite frankly.

[chardbass]

How about taking 2 basses- one tuned to concert pitch and the other tuned to the lowest pitch C, F, Bb, Eb?
Learn the songs that require tunings in Eb and D on the C- tuned bass. You'll still get the nice flappy low notes.

[Commando Jack]

Just a thought, how do the guitarists handle it? Do they cart 4 guitars around?


Also, if there are no horns or keys, why not just play the standard tuning songs in Eb? It would save you a bass, and the singer surely would be able to cope with a semi-tone difference. <edit> sorry, thodrik has already suggested this </edit>

However, if you have keys or horns, this would mean them relearning tunes. I know if I played sax in a band that wanted change a song by a semi-tone they would be picking bits of that sax out of their nether-regions

Edited August 12, 2011 by Commando Jack

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='grunge666' post='1336457' date='Aug 11 2011, 02:19 PM']We do rock covers but, try and nail them as close to the originals as we can[/quote]
That's probably the problem. Judging from your username, you're playing heavy rock and grunge stuff, right? If so, then loads of those riffs and basslines are written with things like pull-offs to open low C, or playing a riff quite high up the neck, interspersed with open strings that are far from standard tuning. Not to mention drop tunings.

You probably could just about play some (or many) of them note-for-note on a BEAD-tuned 4-string (or CFBbEb or whatever), but chances are it'll be much harder work than sticking to the original tunings. Taking a popular tune as an example, it's equivalent to tuning a standard bass down a tone (say) and then trying to play Muse's "Hysteria" [i]in the original key[/i]. You can't rely on any open strings so it'll be awkward fingerings all around.

My personal suggestion would be to try transposing the tunes from the D tuning down to the C tuning, and the standard ones to Eb. Then you've only got 2 tunings to deal with, and you've halved the number of bass changes. (You could, of course, tune some up instead, but your singer might have issues with that. )

Alternatively, don't try to nail them as close to the originals as you can. Make them your own.

[Delberthot]

I'm lost. I know that certain genres of Metal etc use really low tunings but in my 24 years of playing I've only ever downtuned an entire bass once and that was because I was depping with a band, had to learn 40 songs I did not know and then just before we started was told that they tune down a semitone for everything.

Pass - learn to transpose the songs your doing?

[tauzero]

Tune down to C (or BEAD) and use a capo if you need to have open strings at particular pitches

Use a pitch shifter

The third option, go into a deep sulk and announce that all songs have to be in standard tuning, is only allowed if you're a guitarist or vocalist

[grunge666]

Thanks for all the suggestions - It was interesting to see there were so many ideas and I apologise if some didn't get what I was on about.

BottomEndian did get exactly what I was on about. It's the open strings that I need/love!


[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1337471' date='Aug 12 2011, 12:01 PM']That's probably the problem. Judging from your username, you're playing heavy rock and grunge stuff, right? If so, then loads of those riffs and basslines are written with things like pull-offs to open low C, or playing a riff quite high up the neck, interspersed with open strings that are far from standard tuning. Not to mention drop tunings.

You probably could just about play some (or many) of them note-for-note on a BEAD-tuned 4-string (or CFBbEb or whatever), but chances are it'll be much harder work than sticking to the original tunings. Taking a popular tune as an example, it's equivalent to tuning a standard bass down a tone (say) and then trying to play Muse's "Hysteria" [i]in the original key[/i]. You can't rely on any open strings so it'll be awkward fingerings all around.

My personal suggestion would be to try transposing the tunes from the D tuning down to the C tuning, and the standard ones to Eb. Then you've only got 2 tunings to deal with, and you've halved the number of bass changes. (You could, of course, tune some up instead, but your singer might have issues with that. )

Alternatively, don't try to nail them as close to the originals as you can. Make them your own.[/quote]

Ironically, we do Hysteria by Muse and at other end of the scale No One Knows by Queens of the Stone Age.

I think the 'much harder work' bit is exactly what I'm trying to avoid!!
I've never played in a covers band before and in the 30 odd years I've been playing (less the 9 years I was married to a witch and sold most of my gear!) I only ever played in pitch or half a step down!

The range of stuff we're doing now is basically quite new to me with regards to the different tunings and dropping the whole bass is logical, it just made sense, to me anyway & now I know it's probably not the best way!

Our guitarists both work for Line 6 and use Variax's - so a turn of a knob and they're sorted (Gits!)

I can' t see me going for a 5 string (you're probably thinking a 4 string is too much for me now!!) but, there's a load of suggestions from you all that I'm going to look into, I think the BEAD tuning will be my first stop.

If I can't get my head around it quickly enough (gigs planned), with some of the suggestions I can leave at least 1, maybe 2 basses at home.

Thanks again for your suggestions and advice - some may think I'm a bit of a tool going the long way around with this but, I'm loving playing again - I'm finally happy with my gear & tone and more importantly the band I'm in now. We set out to get the tracks as close to the originals and it does work with the variations of the tunings (it certainly gives the singer a workout!) and it's not a test for the crowd to work out what the song is before the chorus kicks in!

Cheers again, very much appreciated.

Edited August 12, 2011 by grunge666

[chris_b]

Can they get you a Variax bass, if there's such a thing. Sounds like the best solution to me.

[Prime_BASS]

I'm only going to repeat what's been said before.

Use 2, one the usual and another for the lowest tuning and use that for anything other than standard or whatever majority of the songs you are playing are in. Transpose the rest using the lowest tuned bass. It shouldn't sound too odd.

I remember my band trying to cover SOAD chop suey, I think the tuning is in C, we did it in standard and just played it as low as possible. Then again we weren't trying to do it exactly the same, as some parts I went a whole octave up to be in pitch with the guitar.

[grunge666]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1337943' date='Aug 12 2011, 05:40 PM']Can they get you a Variax bass, if there's such a thing. Sounds like the best solution to me.[/quote]

The Variax bass doesn't do tuning, just the tone modelling.

[mcnach]

[quote name='grunge666' post='1337960' date='Aug 12 2011, 05:51 PM']The Variax bass doesn't do tuning, just the tone modelling. [/quote]

it doesn't???

but that was one of the best features on the Variax guitar!

[stingrayPete1977]

The fact you can see tuning to BEAD would be your next logical step surely must be pointing you towards a 5'er? A few evening spent working the affected songs out and your sorted, I get what bottomendian says but a five would still solve many of your problems.

[LiamPodmore]

My bands singer had this problem due to only having 1 guitar. At the time we played in E standard, D standard, drop D and drop C. What he did was only ever tune his guitar to D standard or drop C, and just use a capo on the 2nd fret for standard and drop D, worked really well, till we dropped everything lower than drop D. So using a capo could be an option?

Liam