Al Heeley Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I play in a loud rock and punk band - Peavey Tour 450 head into 1 x 15 Hartke XL cab + 4 x 10 Hartke XL cab. The head is only just managing to keep up with the guitars in a medium pub setting. I don't want to D/I via PA as PA is stretched with 3 vocals going into it. I'm looking for options on a new bass head to give me more head room so I can maintain a solid bass presence in the mix without having to drive the amp to peak clipping all the time. It's on about 95% full volume for a pub gig which triggers the little red limiter light all the time. The 4x10 cab is 400w, the 115 is 200W. I would have thought a 450w bass head would have ample power for this... Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazy_olie Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 your band plays loud o.O! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Everyones volume knob and turn them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 lawd knows I've tried but theres 2 guitards competing and one has a mesa boogie dual reco and a new extension cab All he does is brag it's only just gone past 2 on the master vol. Tbh, I'd thought I'd get a bit more power out of the tour 450 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) I think the whole volume of the band needs to come down one hell of a lot. I use a 500 watt amp (at 4 ohms), which emits 300 watts at 8 ohms. Using it with a single 8 ohm 4x10, in a rock-band with 2 gtrs/drums, and my other band, which has 2 basses, drums, 3 gtrs, and keyboards, I`ve never needed my amp on more than 4. And those Peavey amps aren`t quiet, neither are the Hartke XL cabs, as such, I think your guitarists need to look at: Reducing the bass on their amps Reducing the reverb on their amps Reducing the gain on their amps All of this will make them clearer, and easier to hear, without the need for the massive volume And I`d say that on your bass set-up, reduce the bass a bit, and up the mids. As you`ve got a 1x15, out-front the bass will be felt anyway, but It`s the mids that make the bass heard. Edited July 8, 2011 by Lozz196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ern500evo Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 If you're struggling for volume with a 450w head, 1x15 and 4x10 then either a)your guitarists are deafening b)You're playing massive pubs/clubs or c) there's something not right with your rig or settings. I use a Ashdown ABM500 and an 8x10 and even in a band with 2 guitarist's both using Marshall heads/cabs volume is never a problem, my amp sometimes is just ticking over. Your rig should be enough to take ceiling's down in most pubs!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I'd suggest the Hartke LH1000 and replacing the 115 with another 410. Get ear plugs as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='ern500evo' post='1297254' date='Jul 8 2011, 02:43 PM']If you're struggling for volume with a 450w head, 1x15 and 4x10 then either a)your guitarists are deafening b)You're playing massive pubs/clubs or c) there's something not right with your rig or settings. I use a Ashdown ABM500 and an 8x10 and even in a band with 2 guitarist's both using Marshall heads/cabs volume is never a problem, my amp sometimes is just ticking over. Your rig should be enough to take ceiling's down in most pubs!![/quote] +the 1 My 300w GK Backline with 2 15"s never even gets to half without things falling off walls. Have you tried a wee bit of eqing to get through? Or shooting the guitar players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yeah, I'd say it's more of an EQ'ing issue with the band as a whole. Do you have to crank it right up for practice too? That sort of volume must be unbearable! As a band, you should sit down together and work out who's filling out which frequency. You should set your cabs up the way you would live (logistically, that is) and practice like that and keep working until you get a good sound that doesnt involve you having to buy another head. Also, this is completely serious, have you considered that you may be going deaf? Those sorts of volumes cant be helping and it may be altering your perceptions of how your rig sounds. Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Can the vocalists be heard at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algmusic Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1297270' date='Jul 8 2011, 02:54 PM']Can the vocalists be heard at all?[/quote] watt???? 450 is pleeeeenty.. I can't imagine how loud they are... Also if you get a louder amp, they will just turn up.. it's called the circle of death.. sorry deaf! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimefred Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I used to have similar problems with my previous band, we were so so loud it was insane but our drummer was that bloody loud we had to crank to hear what we did over him. I ended up looking at what the guitarists were doing and they were basically stealing my fequencies so my amp was maxing out all the time and i couldnt hear anything. THey changed their sound a little by knocking off some bottom end and we all up'd the mids and it was much more audible. Still crazy loud but that was just the natural volume of the band. loved it! haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Thanks for the comments, I think we're going to have to play around with our EQ's a lot more to get the sound better balanced without playing the volume knob arms race. It's got to the stage where the drummer is being lost in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) If you're losing the drummer then the band will end up sounding weedy and not very RAWK at all. Listen to any albums or live recordings where the guitars dominate and the drums are too quiet and it's always the same. If your guitarists want to sound like they're in an aggressively rocking punk band then they seriously need to turn down. If they don't then they should go any play acoustic music where there are no drums! And I bet if you can't hear the drums well I bet then the kick drum is particularly lost! Set the volume level off how loud the drummer can consistently play the kick. Any louder and you're just shooting yourself in the foot as the band will annoy the punters more but they'll feel the music less. Rant over! Edited July 8, 2011 by alexclaber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algmusic Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1297365' date='Jul 8 2011, 04:08 PM']If you're losing the drummer then the band will end up sounding weedy and not very RAWK at all. Listen to any albums or live recordings where the guitars dominate and the drums are too quiet and it's always the same. If your guitarists want to sound like they're in an aggressively rocking punk band then they seriously need to turn down. If they don't then they should go any play acoustic music where there are no drums! And I bet if you can't hear the drums well I bet then the kick drum is particularly lost! Set the volume level off how loud the drummer can consistently play the kick. Any louder and you're just shooting yourself in the foot as the band will annoy the punters more but they'll feel the music less. Rant over! [/quote] +1000000000 I'm also a drummer and this is sooooo true.. no kick.. no rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Well ranted Alex, makes a lot of sense. I'm gearing up for a pre-gig lecture, see how long before they all start turning up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 If they don't believe you then try to get some recordings, one where they're playing with the levels as you suggest, one with the levels as they like it - hearing is believing! Removing most of the damping from the kick and tuning a bit higher, particularly the resonant head will get more volume and a tone that often works better live, even if it isn't as thumpy and pretty on recordings. But I would say that as I have a particular penchant for bombastic 26" kick drums and have a fairly heavy right foot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 All good advice. A 450W amp should be plenty for pubs. I use a 600W and often turn it right up, but then, I use a cab with a big mid hump with the mids and treble rolled right off, including using a dual compressor to wipe out a load of low mids. Mostly cos both guitarists in the band hog the bandwidth around there. It works fine apart from when we play places with PA, I get told to turn down on stage and I can't hear what f*cking note I'm playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Sounds like youband is too loud & your cabs are inefficient. Punk band = no comprimise with volume Flog your cabs & get more efficient ones (maybe a barefaced bigone). Sorry, it's taken me over an hour to type this post between calls! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Unless something weird has happened and one of the cabs is wired with reversed polarity then a 4x10"+1x15" should be damned loud! You won't be able to truly use all 450W without things getting somewhat distorted because the 15" will complain due to over-excursion but even 200W driving a stack that size will be LOUD. Definitely a case of player error, but not Al, the players with those funny little guitars! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 [quote name='alexclaber' post='1297365' date='Jul 8 2011, 04:08 PM']If you're losing the drummer then the band will end up sounding weedy and not very RAWK at all. Listen to any albums or live recordings where the guitars dominate and the drums are too quiet and it's always the same. If your guitarists want to sound like they're in an aggressively rocking punk band then they seriously need to turn down. Rant over! [/quote] Thats common sense for anyone who has any comprehension of overall sound and dynamics, but most rock guitarists on the pub/club circuits are only concerned about them being heard, the band are just there cause they have to be, and before anyone shoots me I did say most, not all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 The real clincher here (and as someone else said, the guitarists often only suffer the rest of the band because they HAVE to have other people on stage with them) is that I'm sure it sounds a mess to the punters. There are activities which are great on your own, but really should not be shared in public. Yes I'm talking about KILLER guitar tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Serious point is that most bands are too loud for the venues they play..god knows what the bar staff make of it, having to put up with getting deafened every gig night. Any band with Marshal half stacks or the like in a pub is one to be avoided.. I take my plugs with me now... but hopefully, if good weather, I'll be outside or just give them a miss. If you are not heard with a bass stack, there is no point the drummer bothering. Your stage sound must be awful..and too loud...and that will chase some people away in itself. I'd bet the vox struggle as well and he ends up hoarse every night..? Sound familiar..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 We had a chat before the gig last night, and spent more time taking some bass off the guitars, boosting my mids a touch, and lowering overall level from the start. I waqs able to play at about 75% volume for a change, the drummer was a lot clearer but the guitarists were seriously pissed off. Trouble playing in a small pub is 1) The cymbals deafen you 2) Everyone's playing on top of their cabs and so much of the sound goes out underneath you. The guitarist with mesa was not able to hear himself where he stood (next to the cymbals) so immediately had his vol way up too loud, drowning everything else out. Bringing it back down to a balanced level up front meant he could barely hear himself all night. Overall we sounded a lot better and I was able to play with an authorative sound without having to play half as hard as I normally have to; this made it less tiring and made the fast passages a lot easier. Also less punters got ear damage, and we get asked back again for another gig. Geez, I hate playing tiny pubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Ear plugs. Seriously, they`ll really help with the cymbals and the guitarists will hear their tone much more clearly. As will you. Apart from anything else, you will be damaging your ears to the point where your musical activities will be seriously impaired. I know it`s not very punk rock, but neither is tinnitus. Another suggestion is raise those guitar amps off the floor, get them on stands or flightcases etc and point them at the guitarists EARS, not their ankles/knees/hips. That`ll make them turn down while still being able to hear themselves properly and the audience will still get the full effect of the tone as it will have dispersed properly over a few Metres. Blasting the audience will lose you work.They will tell the bar staff and the promoter and the bar manager at length if you are hurting their ears. Your onstage mix is very important in that size venue as it is effectively the actual FOH mix too. Remember it is the audience/bar manager who pays your wages so your guitarists need to compromise and understand that volume doesn`t equal quality, in fact they are making you ALL sound worse. I know that you know this, apologies for the egg sucking tutorial, I`m just trying to give you ammo for your cause. Good luck. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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