Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[Doddy]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200773' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:48 PM']Will you all stop comparing music to golf?

I find it offensive.

Thank you.[/quote]

Sure-my golf analogy has run out anyway.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1200778' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:50 PM']Golf, A good walk ruined.
Winston Churchill.[/quote]
If Winston ever said that, he got it from Mark Twain.

Winston said: 'Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose'.

Edited April 15, 2011 by EssentialTension

[Truckstop]

I've just started to learn to read music again after dropping it as a young pianist at junior school.
Although I don't think that the actual reading skill is that important, I do find myself picturing stanzas in my brain when I'm jamming at home. Like, I can think ahead and write the music down in my brain, before I play it. So I'm reading music in my brain.
To be honest though, I think it's more to do with a familiarity thing rather than having an actual understanding of WHY certain sequences of notes sound good against a particular chord.
I think Paul's right though. If you want to be the best and get the work, you need to know what makes music sound good and in my opinon, a study of musical theory does that for you. It's no good being pitted against another bassist in an audition who is better than you because he can communicate with the band leader or other musicians better than you can.

Oral.

Truckstop

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1200798' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:03 PM']...I do find myself picturing stanzas in my brain when I'm jamming at home.[/quote]
Are you sure you mean stanzas?

I mean, I've got no problem with you visualising stanzas. I'm just... confused.

[Bilbo]

The golf analogy doesn't work because, if I am not mistaken, you always play golf alone (i.e. you are responsible only for your own piece of the process). If a non-solo musician doesn't know the names of stuff, everyone else has to do that work for them. Of course there are the occasional savants who are instinctively able to make great things happen without technical knowledge but I have never met one for those of us who work with them, they are, to a greater or lessor degree, a pain in the ass and slow things down dramatically. It is also important to acknowledge that most uninformed musicians are only ever playing really basic song forms so it doesn't take much to 'find a root note'. If you were playing with Allan Holdsworth, every chord would have at least 3 root note options so your choices may be incorrent in terms of the composers intentions. If he couldn't explain the chord, it would be that much more difficult to see it happen. So, if the music is that basic, it is less likley to inspire me and I won't want the gig. Game over. Its not impossible to think I will play with a musician who lacks basic knowledge but, as my horizons expand and my available time contracts, it is increasingly unlikely.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1200816' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:16 PM']for those of us who work with them, they are, to a greater or lessor degree, a pain in the ass and slow things down dramatically.[/quote]
Why don't people say 'pain in the arse' anymore?

Just wondering.

[Truckstop]

I always called them stanzas!
You know, music! The lines with blobs and lines drawn on them!

Truckstop

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1200823' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:20 PM']I always called them stanzas!
You know, music! The lines with blobs and lines drawn on them![/quote]
Ah, [i]staves[/i]! I'm with you now.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200820' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:19 PM']Why don't people say 'pain in the arse' anymore?[/quote]
So after oral vs aural, we've moved on to anal now?

Sorry, I'll get m'coat.

[Truckstop]

Staves!
Thank you!

Truckstop

[skej21]

I hate to throw the spanner in the works, but even the great GREAT musicians of Jazz and music we would associate with music theory in practice, play without knowing what they are doing at the time.

Miles Davis - “I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.”

The guy has the knowledge and he can tell you what he played by analyising it after, but it's obvious that (in the musical moment) he plays probably from a combination of his ear and patterns he's played before. The quote also implies that he has not purposefully affected the harmony/melody of the piece, but simply played something that fits at the time and can explain/justify it through further analysis at a later point in time.

Again, apologies for the spanner in the works!

[Gust0o]

Okay, we need another sporting analogy... Can some wit make darts work?

[Bilbo]

Miles said a lot of things

Most advanced jazz musicians will say 'learn the theory and then forget it' and play what you hear. The point is, what you hear is informed by what you have learned. But this is missing the point. We are not talking about complex musical ideas here, we are ralking about the ability to communicate basic information like 'its a C chord'. WIthout that knowledge and communication, I am afraid I would get increasingly frustrated and quickly move on. I've been there with people like that. I just don't find it rewarding to hang around.

I did a session once with a guy like this who said 'I have this jazzy thing you might like'. The chords (one per bar) went Emaj7, Fsharp min7, G sharp min7, A maj 7. Thrill of my day.

[Doddy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200832' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:26 PM']I hate to throw the spanner in the works, but even the great GREAT musicians of Jazz and music we would associate with music theory in practice, play without knowing what they are doing at the time.

Miles Davis - “I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.”

The guy has the knowledge and he can tell you what he played by analyising it after, but it's obvious that (in the musical moment) he plays probably from a combination of his ear and patterns he's played before. The quote also implies that he has not purposefully affected the harmony/melody of the piece, but simply played something that fits at the time and can explain/justify it through further analysis at a later point in time.

Again, apologies for the spanner in the works![/quote]

The thing with this is that players like Miles had spent so long playing and studying that when they are on the bandstand they
aren't thinking "Cminor7..2..3..4../F7..2..3..4.." or "A minor=A,C,E"-It's ingrained. They know about scales and arpeggios and chords
and all that stuff and it allows them to just play.
When you are on stage you don't want to be thinking about every note,that is why you spend time in the 'shed,practising.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1200852' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:39 PM']The thing with this is that players like Miles had spent so long playing and studying that when they are on the bandstand they
aren't thinking "Cminor7..2..3..4../F7..2..3..4.." or "A minor=A,C,E"-It's ingrained. They know about scales and arpeggios and chords
and all that stuff and it allows them to just play.
When you are on stage you don't want to be thinking about every note,that is why you spend time in the 'shed,practising.[/quote]

Oh, I know that.

My point is simply that this argument is not as black and white as everyone is making out.

I totally agree with yourself and Bilbo that if you want to be taken seriously in ANY musical setting, you should have a basic knowledge of it and do a bit of work.

Turning up to a gig of any kind without that knowledge (IMO) is like turning up to a job interview and knowing nothing about the company you intend to work for and hoping to blag the job.

[chris_b]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200860' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:43 PM']....Oh, I know that. My point is simply that this argument is not as black and white as everyone is making out....[/quote]
You're not going to win!!

[chris_b]

[quote name='skej21' post='1200860' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:43 PM']....Turning up to a gig of any kind without that knowledge (IMO) is like turning up to a job interview and knowing nothing about the company you intend to work for and hoping to blag the job....[/quote]
Isn't that what consultants do?

[Thurbs]

Thanks for the range of responses...

I like the songs they play even though they are they are often simple with two chord songs. That may bore some people but I mainly joined the band for DB experience and learning to confidently improvise on stage with good intonation!

Also, learning by ear 100% is only going to help me in the long run....

[jezzaboy]

I once played with a guitarist who would noodle around and every so often play a great "lick" and when you asked him what it was he played, he didn`t have a clue. Great feel player but he could be intensley anoying.

A right "pain in the arse." Happy now WOT?

Jez

[Bassassin]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200820' date='Apr 15 2011, 03:19 PM']Why don't people say 'pain in the arse' anymore?

Just wondering.[/quote]
I don't know. But I wish they would because personally - and call me callous if you wish - I have very little concern about the discomfort of donkeys & mules, and their plight is of no real interest to me.

Much like reading notation. I did start to teach myself a year or two after I started playing bass, because I thought I should - but quite quickly arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't going to make me better at playing the music I wanted to play, & I gradually lost interest. I did get to the point where I could laboriously work out a piece of written music note-by-note, but I've always had an aptitude for learning by ear, and for me that was the quickest route to playing what I wanted to play.

On one level I sort of regret being a lazy little sod & not making myself get to sight-reading standard but I don't think it would have had much of an effect on what I've chosen to do musically over the years.

On-topic (because Reading Music Is Good/Bad [i]isn't[/i] the topic), I've never knowingly met a guitarist who didn't have some idea of what they were doing - in fact I'd say all the guitarists I've played with have been very musically aware & competent. I hesitate to say "literate" because as far as I know, none of them have been readers/writers.

As a composer (not "writer"!) all of my ideas come from noodling around on the guitar (or very occasionally, bass) until I hear something I like. I know all the major/minor chords but also play various weird made-up shapes that I have no idea of the names of, & more often than not it's this stuff that inspires or even becomes the basis of my compositions. I prefer to record complete arrangements to give to the band to learn/interpret - I think that way they get to hear what I hear rather than having to try & explain it verbally.

Jon.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1200685' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:55 PM']I've always been in metal bands and as such, never used chords.

Truckstop[/quote]
What did you use instead?


I didnt know we had one of these threads going as it was disguised in its title (or are we off topic? Haha) Its nearly on page five anyway and I think 6 is the record for the reading/non reading thread?

[Thurbs]

Had 4 hours today with the songs and it was pretty hard going (we were at the Joint near Kings Cross if anyone knows it?).

I now realise and echo some of Bilbo's comments about how much easier it would be playing to at least a chord chart or some dots.

Managed to get down 7 songs in that time + run through some others I had learnt off a CD... so pleased with myself and I have definitely learnt something.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1202075' date='Apr 16 2011, 07:48 PM']Much like reading notation. I did start to teach myself a year or two after I started playing bass, because I thought I should - but quite quickly arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't going to make me better at playing the music I wanted to play, & I gradually lost interest.[/quote]

I hear this excuse a lot (along with 'I don't need to know this stuff to play in my band'),and I don't buy it. Just because you like
a particular type of music doesn't mean you should avoid an essential part of it's language.
When I started playing I had to use my ear to learn the music that I was into and wanted to play,but I still learned how to associate
the bass with the stave....and believe it or not,it actually helped with learning the music that I wanted to play and made it
easier.

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1202075' date='Apr 16 2011, 07:48 PM']I prefer to record complete arrangements to give to the band to learn/interpret - I think that way they get to hear what I hear rather than having to try & explain it verbally.[/quote]

Which is cool if you have the luxury of being able to spend time learning the tunes as a band. But,like I often say,there are many
situations where this isn't an option.

[Blademan_98]

I play guitar and bass and rely on the chords, keys and notation.

I have just started to train my ears as I now want to put the sounds to the notes

I will ask at a jam what key it's in so I at least have a clue

I love learning but know it's not for everyone.

It's all good................ it's music

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1202143' date='Apr 16 2011, 09:05 PM']I hear this excuse a lot (along with 'I don't need to know this stuff to play in my band'),and I don't buy it. Just because you like
a particular type of music doesn't mean you should avoid an essential part of it's language.
When I started playing I had to use my ear to learn the music that I was into and wanted to play,but I still learned how to associate
the bass with the stave....and believe it or not,it actually helped with learning the music that I wanted to play and made it
easier.

Which is cool if you have the luxury of being able to spend time learning the tunes as a band. But,like I often say,there are many
situations where this isn't an option.[/quote]
"Excuse"?

Hilarity at your presumptuousness (I'm being polite) aside, both of your responses are pretty much irrelevant to me - which was the point of my post. And I didn't "avoid" anything - I was a teenager with a short attention span & wanted to play in a band & get out gigging - reading would not have helped, and plainly it's been in no sense "essential".

I'm not for a moment suggesting what has been absolutely fine for me would be to anyone else, which was, again, fundamental to the point of the post.

J.