Guitarists who don't know what they are playing

[Gust0o]

For a minute I thought Doddy was going to keep it on track.

However, I have had my snigger. Facial justice. Thanks guys

Edited April 15, 2011 by Gust0o

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1200650' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:34 PM']For a minute I thought Doddy was going to keep it on track; I suspect he would also take his rules of the game out to the driving range, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one [/quote]

I did keep it on track-Everyone knows my opinions on basic musical knowledge.
If I still played golf,then yes I would take my rules to the driving range,especially if I was even vaguely serious about it.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1200649' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:33 PM']I've been playing recently with a guitarist who not only generally doesn't know what notes/chords she's playing, but also uses loads of non-standard tunings, multiple capos and complex voicings (so no chance of hand-watching to catch the chords). Doesn't stop her being a cracking songwriter though.[/quote]
Would you say she is an expert in the oral tradition?

[icastle]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200519' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:05 PM']If I was confronted with a guitarist like this, it wouldn't really bother me. I'd just work out what chords he's playing and crack on.
Life's too short.
Welcome to folk music.[/quote]

+1

How long does it take to find the root of the chord?
One second, perhaps two?
Once you have that then it's up to you as the bass player to either stick with that root note or to do something a little more interesting if it adds to the music.

There are stacks of really nice players out there who come up with decidedly odd looking chords and can't name them.
"I was just mucking about and found it" isn't an uncommon refrain.

It's just the way it always has been and it's unlikely to change.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1200659' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:41 PM']Would you say she is an expert in the oral tradition?[/quote]
I'm not going to rise to tha... DAMMIT.

[Sercet]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1200649' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:33 PM']A certain Mr Hendrix begs to differ:



I've been playing recently with a guitarist who not only generally doesn't know what notes/chords she's playing, but also uses loads of non-standard tunings, multiple capos and complex voicings.[/quote]

Same here. He has no idea what he's playing. If I play upright, neither do I. I wouldn't change it.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Sercet' post='1200673' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:48 PM']If I play upright, neither do I. I wouldn't change it.[/quote]

Why is that?

[thunderbird13]

Who cares if they know the chord names or not, if it sounds good and its fun then there's no problem. What do the other people in the band think of her ?

[icastle]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1200662' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:42 PM']I'm not going to rise to tha... DAMMIT.[/quote]

[Truckstop]

I've always been in metal bands and as such, never used chords.

Truckstop

[ironside1966]

For me it is all about the results in the time available. It doesn’t mater whether they play by here or know the theory.

I have auditioned many guitarists for cover bands over the years I would say that 90% could play the solos and 20% could play the chords. Unfortunately guitarists often can’t play anything other than a major, minor, seventh or power cord. Nothing wrong with this but if they want to become a good versatile guitarist I would expect them at least to be capable of a playing every chord in different voicing’s and inversions.
But how many of us could play a simple walking in line to a jazz standard, bass players need to understand harmony also
to understand harmony also

Edited April 15, 2011 by ironside1966

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1200533' date='Apr 15 2011, 12:12 PM']A lot seem to look at the lowest note in their chord then assume that that's the root note and chance a guess at the rest of the chord, that kind of thing.[/quote]


Thats exactly what I do

[GarethFlatlands]

I knew basic chord shapes for years but didn't know why one was major and one was minor. I started singing lessons and my teacher was slightly bemused by my lack of theory knowledge after 12 or so years of playing and taught me the basics, major/minor keys, chord structure and that kind of thing and it's helped me immensely. It's good to know the rules so you can bend them to make something that sounds interesting, even if 99% of the people hearing it won't appreciate the technical reasons why.

It still surprises me how many guitarists I come across know even less than I do, although they've all known which basic chord they were playing and where all the notes were.

[Monckyman]

I`ve met a few classical musicians who couldn`t jam a note and get all upset and insecure when you ask them to.
I also met a lot of excellent musicians who "know" what they are doing without having a clue why.
When I was a child my grandfather tought me piano, which included reading. I hated it and avoided lessons when I could, although I loved playing the piano.
Later at college they tried re-teaching me to read rather than using the ears I had relied on for years and it was a real struggle.So much so that I didn`t complete that module.
I do believe there is a long dark teatime of the soul when learning the dots after relying on ears and this seems to knock your instinctive feel out of kilter.
One theory I heard was to do with memory, either visual or aural, and that the visual memory part of the brain was larger and better served, so learning to "see" a visual representation of what you were hearing, helped with retention and understanding.
I`m with the "Badger Chewers" though.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1200658' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:41 PM']If I still played golf,then yes I would take my rules to the driving range,especially if I was even vaguely serious about it.[/quote]

Good for you, Doddy. Massively wasted on the driving range, but good for you. A bit like musical theory being wasted if you're highest ambition is to play covers on Youtube, which is almost certainly the musical equivalent of a few post-work balls on the driving range.

However, they might want to have a thumb through that book if they fancy a round on the course; or, as in the OP's case, if they've got a guitarist fancying slotting into a band.

I'm now considering slotting some kind of golf balls joke in alongside the strong oral tradition of this thread.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1200702' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:05 PM']I`ve met a few classical musicians who couldn`t jam a note and get all upset and insecure when you ask them to.
I also met a lot of excellent musicians who "know" what they are doing without having a clue why.[/quote]

The thing is,90% of classical musicians never need to jam. That's why I said earlier that ears are a given in popular music.
I know lots of musicians that don't know what they are doing,and they play well at what they do. But,they all tend to fall in to their stock licks and patterns. They are very much niche players.

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1200702' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:05 PM']When I was a child my grandfather tought me piano, which included reading. I hated it and avoided lessons when I could, although I loved playing the piano.
Later at college they tried re-teaching me to read rather than using the ears I had relied on for years and it was a real struggle.So much so that I didn`t complete that module.
I do believe there is a long dark teatime of the soul when learning the dots after relying on ears and this seems to knock your instinctive feel out of kilter.[/quote]

Why were you so adamant about not learning to read? If you enjoyed playing the piano,why wouldn't you not want to get the most out of it?
Learning to read will not affect your instinctive feel,unless you let it. In which case it could be argued that there was little feel to begin with.

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1200702' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:05 PM']One theory I heard was to do with memory, either visual or aural, and that the visual memory part of the brain was larger and better served, so learning to "see" a visual representation of what you were hearing, helped with retention and understanding.
I`m with the "Badger Chewers" though. [/quote]

It is not just about retaining information,although it can help. It is also the quickest way of passing on information to other musicians so that they can play it instantly.

[Sercet]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1200680' date='Apr 15 2011, 01:51 PM']Why is that?[/quote]

Because I'm not very good at upright - I just move my fingers until the note sounds good. On a fretted bass or a fretless bass I'll know the note, but on the upright I would have to work it out.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1200725' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:22 PM']Good for you, Doddy. Massively wasted on the driving range, but good for you. A bit like musical theory being wasted if you're highest ambition is to play covers on Youtube, which is almost certainly the musical equivalent of a few post-work balls on the driving range.[/quote]

You can go to the driving range and hit a few buckets of balls and occasionally you'll fluke a shot that goes straight for miles but most will fall short and go all over the place. If you want to consistently hit decent shots you need to learn the basics of swing and grip and all that lark.
It's the same with music.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Sercet' post='1200733' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:26 PM']... I just move my fingers until the note sounds good ...[/quote]
Do the rest of the band mind waiting for you?

[Doddy]

[quote name='Sercet' post='1200733' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:26 PM']Because I'm not very good at upright - I just move my fingers until the note sounds good. On a fretted bass or a fretless bass I'll know the note, but on the upright I would have to work it out.[/quote]

But why wouldn't you want to change that,like you said earlier?

[Monckyman]

Why were you so adamant about not learning to read? If you enjoyed playing the piano,why wouldn't you not want to get the most out of it?
Learning to read will not affect your instinctive feel,unless you let it. In which case it could be argued that there was little feel to begin with.

No idea, I was a child.
Maybe I thought they were trying to change something I thought was mine alone?
This isn`t after all a rational thing, it`s emotional.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1200740' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:30 PM']You can go to the driving range and hit a few buckets of balls and occasionally you'll fluke a shot that goes straight for miles but most will fall short and go all over the place. If you want to consistently hit decent shots you need to learn the basics of swing and grip and all that lark.
It's the same with music.[/quote]

You can do that without the rule book, Doddy. So many have. Again, as you say, it's the same with music

[Doddy]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1200745' date='Apr 15 2011, 02:32 PM']You can do that without the rule book, Doddy. So many have. Again, as you say, it's the same with music [/quote]

Technique wise,yes you can. But eventually you will hit the golf course where the rules will apply. On the driving range you can do what you want,the same as when you sit in your room playing by yourself. But when you hit the course/stage you should at the very least,understand the basic rules.

[wateroftyne]

Will you all stop comparing music to golf?

I find it offensive.

Thank you.

[Monckyman]

Golf, A good walk ruined.
Winston Churchill.