The Tone Fallacy

[Chris2112]

I think I know where you're coming from there, and it reminds me of when people were obsessed with EQ settings at the start of the Millenium.

Everywhere you looked online and in guitar magazines, they'd have "EQ settings" for copying a player's tone. I thought it to be the biggest load of rubbish when I saw something like this on another forum a few years ago:

Stuart Hamm:
Bass - 6/10
Mids - 5/10
Treble - 6/10

So that was it, that was supposed to get you Stuart Hamm's sound? I thought that was a big load of crap. Stu's tone was something I had been after since I was 15, I bought my first Kubicki bass without ever having seen one in person to get that sound. Simply tweaking a few controls on your amp was never going to have the same effect as having the same bass, the same amp, detailed study into the playing style. Even the minor details, like learning to replicate touch and plucking action are important.

A Kubicki sounds like a Kubicki. A Ken Smith always sounds like a Ken Smith. An Alembic always sounds like an Alembic. Instruments have that inherent "tone", their own character that just can't be removed without serious and unncessary tweaking. You can't replicate Kai Eckhardt's 1980's Schack tone with something dire like a P bass and a flutter about your amp's EQ settings. The tonal characteristics of the P bass are never going to be able to produce a suitable result.


Luckily, we seem to have moved away from this now. Particularly with older players who have a better idea of what different brands and instruments do and sound like, we are appreciating the instruments for what they are. I never use the EQ section on my amp now. I used to use it when I was playing live as an aid to balance the sound of the room, essentially so I could reproduce the sound I used at home. Now if I'm in the studio and I have my amp with me I still don't use it, as I'll EQ from the board. It is a fantastically useable and flexible tool but not one that should be relied upon too much.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1063249' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:33 AM']...

The only marketing that gets me is Marmite, As soon as I see an advert for it I crave it on toast! Yum[/quote]

Can't stand the stuff Yuck.

But illustrates one of my points perfectly. We're all different. Vivre la difference.

For each of us the tone comes from different parts of our chain in different proportions. To say the amp is 5% is nonsense. It could be 0%-99% depending who you are.

I am not Mark King, Steve Harris, or Fred Smith. Copying their tone or hankering after it is completely pointless unless you are playing in a Level 42, Iron Maiden or Fred Smith and the ToneDeafs tribute act. In which case you'd better get it exactly or the bassists in the crowd at your gigs will have your b***s on a plate.

What I'm really getting at is having a sound in your head and chasing it for years is fairly pointless. Listen to what you actually produce and modify it until you are happy, be prepared to change it in a band setting and relax when you're playing live. If you like the SVT buy one but not because it makes you sound like Mr. X, but because its getting you close to that sound in the head. The sound in your head will never be the sound in your ears and certainly never be the sound in your audiences ears.

Short fingernails, round wound strings, rosewood fingerboard, PJ pickups and transparent amp is what gets me close. EQ on the amp can help get the message through a crowded band mix and dodgy room acoustics. Not always, but sometimes you just have to live with what you have.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1063288' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:29 AM']something dire like a P bass and a flutter about your amp's EQ settings. The tonal characteristics of the P bass are never going to be able to produce a suitable result.[/quote]

OK Chris we get it you dont like P basses! Im not the biggest fan but do you have to call them "dire" or what was it before "clunky"? Some people happen to like them and you are only making yourself look silly IMO. FWIW I wouldnt shovel the snow off my drive with your Kubicki but I wouldnt dis them in every thread! (Just this one ) Rant over, But just a bit of respect here and their wouldnt go a miss it is Christmas and all that.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1063087' date='Dec 18 2010, 11:36 PM']The first step is admitting you have a problem [/quote]

And what is the next step, oh wise one ?

[BigRedX]

Tone is entirely subjective. There is no good or bad tone. Just appropriate or inappropriate tone in the context of the music that it goes with. And even then it's still fairly subjective.

The number of times I see a thread raving about how great someone's particular tone is, which leaves me thinking that if I sounded like that I should probably give up the bass for good because I would hate to sound (IMO) so horrible.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='1063240' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:24 AM']Theres no way I can agree with the OP, thats right up there with what bass sounds best for metal. The whole 'My Tone' thing is whats makes us individual. Imagine if all basses had that farty Jaco tone or Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang?[/quote]
I'm completely with you, Mog.

Tone or more correctly, timbre, is incredibly important. If you have a vision of what you want to communicate through your instrument, timbre is a key component. If I want to dub someone to death, it is not going to happen with Geddy's sound is it. Neither would Jaco's style be possible with Aston Barrett's tone.

So, attention to tone is not a fallacy, the notes occupy more than one dimension, tone is a dimension, harmony, melody, and how they fit with the music are other dimensions. How you activate the strings is yet another, do you pick, pluck, hammer, pull off, slap a particular note in a line. these all affect the tone and dynamics of what you are playing and a great line can be rendered dull as sh*t if you don't apply the dynamics and tone of technique. These dimensions combine to form your overall sound and how it interacts with the ensemble, and what defines the player. You would be stupid to ignore your "tone" and concentrate purely on the notes, there are so many other essential considerations to your bass line quality control.

The only way I can sum it up is, if the only tone I was allowed to use was Jaco's or Aston Barrett's for example, I wouldn't want to play bass anymore.

Edited December 19, 2010 by silddx

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063386' date='Dec 19 2010, 11:43 AM']For each of us the tone comes from different parts of our chain in different proportions. To say the amp is 5% is nonsense. It could be 0%-99% depending who you are.[/quote]

The who you are bit is the 85% part. When I said 85% fingers, I mean in the sense that a slap is gonna sound different from a gentle pluck whatever rig it goes through (provided the rig is working right).

[Chris2112]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1063432' date='Dec 19 2010, 12:25 PM']OK Chris we get it you dont like P basses! Im not the biggest fan but do you have to call them "dire" or what was it before "clunky"? Some people happen to like them and you are only making yourself look silly IMO.[/quote]


Pete, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from here. In terms of discussing the tonal differences between a capable modern bass and something old skool, there really isn't a bass that sums up that farty old sound better than a P bass. I can totally understand why some people are still using P basses, because there is still a market for that (imo) horribly outdated sound. Please don't think I'm being "silly" simply because I voice a certain opinion.

I've just seen someone refer to "Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang". I assume they must mean Victor Bailey, because no-one with a working pair of ears could say that with a straight face about Victor Wooten's tone, and whilst I agree that Bailey has never had the best tone I think it certainly proves it's a case of different vinegar strokes for different folks!

[stingrayPete1977]

Fair enough Chris the comment would of been just as good without the word dire thats all.

[Wil]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1063628' date='Dec 19 2010, 03:45 PM']Pete, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from here. In terms of discussing the tonal differences between a capable modern bass and something old skool, there really isn't a bass that sums up that farty old sound better than a P bass. I can totally understand why some people are still using P basses, because there is still a market for that (imo) horribly outdated sound. Please don't think I'm being "silly" simply because I voice a certain opinion.

I've just seen someone refer to "Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang". I assume they must mean Victor Bailey, because no-one with a working pair of ears could say that with a straight face about Victor Wooten's tone, and whilst I agree that Bailey has never had the best tone I think it certainly proves it's a case of different vinegar strokes for different folks![/quote]

You quite rightly say in your second paragraph that if someone were to make a ridiculous, blanket statement about a player's tone you'd probably dismiss their point of view outright, and yet you've made the exact same kind of statement about every single player who's ever wielded a P bass?

Edited December 19, 2010 by Wil

[TimR]

[quote name='Mog' post='1063240' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:24 AM']Theres no way I can agree with the OP, thats right up there with what bass sounds best for metal. The whole 'My Tone' thing is whats makes us individual. Imagine if all basses had that farty Jaco tone or Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang?[/quote]

I think you're missing the point of my argument.

If we all sounded the same you would be right.

I believe there are people out there who are buying this and buying that in some misplaced belief that they going to one day reach that "Tone Nirvana". The point that they've been searching all their lives for. Does this ever happen?

So we loved Geddy Lee's Rick sound then we argue whether he used the Rick or whether he had moved to the jazz for a certain record.

People on the forum buy 4x10s and then sell them to buy 15s in their search.

Its this minutiae that I don't get.

A dub sound is dub sound to me. In a live setting I couldn't tell Mr Xs dub sound from Mr Y's dub sound. Not that I listen to dub so maybe that's a bad example.

If I hear Harris I know its Harris - does he change his gear every few weeks in an effort to get it closer to what's in his head or did he find a sound that he liked very early in his career and just run with it?

What about Jaco, did he try this and that filler for his frets and this and that coating or did he just pull the frets, fill coat the board and think wow that sounds interesting.

[MythSte]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063664' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:20 PM']I think you're missing the point of my argument.

If we all sounded the same you would be right.

I believe there are people out there who are buying this and buying that in some misplaced belief that they going to one day reach that "Tone Nirvana". The point that they've been searching all their lives for. Does this ever happen?

So we loved Geddy Lee's Rick sound then we argue whether he used the Rick or whether he had moved to the jazz for a certain record.

People on the forum buy 4x10s and then sell them to buy 15s in their search.

Its this minutiae that I don't get.

A dub sound is dub sound to me. In a live setting I couldn't tell Mr Xs dub sound from Mr Y's dub sound. Not that I listen to dub so maybe that's a bad example.

If I hear Harris I know its Harris - does he change his gear every few weeks in an effort to get it closer to what's in his head or did he find a sound that he liked very early in his career and just run with it?

What about Jaco, did he try this and that filler for his frets and this and that coating or did he just pull the frets, fill coat the board and think wow that sounds interesting.[/quote]

It's getting a little vague now!

I think your also negating a lot of other points here. People change gear for all kinds of reasons, these days there is a lot of people chopping and changing trying to get the weight/volume balance right. That wasnt a possibility in the past.

If someone finds a tone they like at the beginning of their career then that must be luck, or at the most slightly educated luck. Say there are 1000 gear combinations and you find one that suits you down to the ground within your first time. Is it not luck that dictates it didn't take you 40 tries? 400 tries?

Why settle for second best in a day and age when there is all this wonderful gear available for us to try? If it makes you happy and all!

[EBS_freak]

Just get everything and have a foot in every camp. It avoids tedious threads like this.

[Mog]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063664' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:20 PM']I think you're missing the point of my argument.

If we all sounded the same you would be right.

I believe there are people out there who are buying this and buying that in some misplaced belief that they going to one day reach that "Tone Nirvana". The point that they've been searching all their lives for. Does this ever happen?

So we loved Geddy Lee's Rick sound then we argue whether he used the Rick or whether he had moved to the jazz for a certain record.

People on the forum buy 4x10s and then sell them to buy 15s in their search.

Its this minutiae that I don't get.

A dub sound is dub sound to me. In a live setting I couldn't tell Mr Xs dub sound from Mr Y's dub sound. Not that I listen to dub so maybe that's a bad example.

If I hear Harris I know its Harris - does he change his gear every few weeks in an effort to get it closer to what's in his head or did he find a sound that he liked very early in his career and just run with it?

What about Jaco, did he try this and that filler for his frets and this and that coating or did he just pull the frets, fill coat the board and think wow that sounds interesting.[/quote]
I get what you're saying lad. I reckon you're on to something WRT the search for an elusive sound but if people didn't go after That sound in their heads we wouldn't have those really great bass tones. Timmy C, Phillip Bynoe, Justin Chancellor, Flea, Nathan East, Rob Trujillo, Marcus Miller...the list is endless.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Tone doesn't just affect how you sound on your own, but how you fit in with the rest of the band. Certain gear might sound great on it's own but not cut through in a mix.

[xilddx]

It seems obvious that some people got a tone they liked easily, maybe because they had little choice of gear, or they were easily pleased, or they thought all basses sound the same, whatever. That's the early days of the electric bass and studio production and live sound reinforcement. Things are infinitely more advanced now and we would be stupid to ignore the possibilities for accurate reproduction of what we hear in our heads. Some players really care about that, some don't, some players heads are full of other stuff they would rather worry about.

If you change this thread title to "the FEEL fallacy" and argue that the feel of the instrument, its action and neck dimensions, etc. are a fallacy and we should concentrate on notes, what do you think the response would be?

[lowdown]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1063527' date='Dec 19 2010, 02:10 PM']And what is the next step, oh wise one ?[/quote]


Practise or Suicide - depending on your gear.



Garry

[skankdelvar]

At this point, may I congratulate everyone for avoiding the use of the phrase "dial in".

[TimR]

[quote name='silddx' post='1063713' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:58 PM']It seems obvious that some people got a tone they liked easily, maybe because they had little choice of gear, or they were easily pleased, or they thought all basses sound the same, whatever. That's the early days of the electric bass and studio production and live sound reinforcement. Things are infinitely more advanced now and we would be stupid to ignore the possibilities for accurate reproduction of what we hear in our heads. Some players really care about that, some don't, some players heads are full of other stuff they would rather worry about.

If you change this thread title to "the FEEL fallacy" and argue that the feel of the instrument, its action and neck dimensions, etc. are a fallacy and we should concentrate on notes, what do you think the response would be?[/quote]

The thread is really a thought experiment. Of course tone is important but its qualitative and not quantitative. I thought it would be interesting to see how much emphasis people put into finding "Their tone".

Without interviewing famous people at length and asking what lengths they have gone into to get "Their tone" we can only speculate what was in their minds.

I found a nice workable tone several years ago, then my gear became outdated and started to be less reliable and there were lighter options around.

The balance is then how much effort and money should I invest trying to find "My tone" again?

If I play a duff sounding gig do I throw out all my gear and buy a whole load of new stuff?

What lengths are people going to modify their tone instead of living with the tone they naturally produce?

I've posted what I like, what do other people like and are they happy?

Edited December 19, 2010 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063823' date='Dec 19 2010, 06:33 PM']I've posted what I like, what do other people like and are they happy?[/quote]

Light weight rig and some kind of Stingray makes me happy, Im not sure its "My tone" but its one I like and I dont find myself searching for the next sound all the time.

[Mokl]

This is a disgusting cliche, but the best players always sound like themselves, regardless of the gear. I was trawling an interesting thread the other day where there was some considerable debate about which bass Bernie Edwards used to record a lot of the Chic records. Some swore blind that it was definitely a Stingray, although someone else gave a convincing argument that it was a P-Bass. Similar arguments about the early Chili Pepper's albums crop up every so often. There will inevitably be subtle differences in "tone" between different basses - eg - try to make a Rickenbacker sound like a Fodera, but there will be a point somewhere in the middle where the player will be able to find that sound they like, either by eq'ing, set up or changing strings, or whatever. Then the phrasing, attack and technique of the payer will surely dominate the tone?

In my opinion tone is 80-90% technique. I am pretty crap though lol!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063823' date='Dec 19 2010, 06:33 PM']I found a nice workable tone several years ago, then my gear became outdated and started to be less reliable and there were lighter options around.[/quote]

I went through exactly the same thing several years back. I've been playing bass and gigging for the last 30 years and for the first dozen years or so I used whatever I could beg steal or borrow (well... no actual stealing), then I found that I could afford a decent rig and bought a pair of B stock H&K Bassbase combos which allowed me to achieve what I'd not been able to with previous gear. That does raise the point that I'd been gigging with (IMHO) a substandard reproduction of the sound that I wanted but 'Beggars can't be choosers'!

I gigged those combos for about 15 years and they gave me the reproduction of sound that I wanted until... they both seemed to electronically 'implode' and despite my best efforts of throwing money at repair bills, were beyond viable economic repair.

[quote name='TimR' post='1063823' date='Dec 19 2010, 06:33 PM']The balance is then how much effort and money should I invest trying to find "My tone" again?[/quote]

Well... my inability to find a replacement H&K BB combo lead me on my quest to try and replicate the sound that [u][b]I[/b][/u] wanted and had from my previous gear. Luckily I had more disposable income and subsequently chased my tail to try and recreate that sound BUT like you I also wanted to go light-weight; what a nightmare! It's taken me several years to find what I was looking for and oddly enough I'm recreating it with different size drivers (12's instead of 10's) and no valves in the preamp.

So how much effort and money? For me a couple years of buying and selling gear, luckily BC (or one of its previous incarnations) was starting off and I largely bought and sold used stuff on here so it was damage limitation on the cost.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Mokl' post='1063860' date='Dec 19 2010, 07:00 PM']Then the phrasing, attack and technique of the payer will surely dominate the tone?

In my opinion tone is 80-90% technique. I am pretty crap though lol![/quote]

The issue of equipment is more about the 'reproduction' at volume of the player's technique or [i][b]tone[/b][/i].

[Mokl]

Fair point. I have always gravitated towards basses that I like playability-wise. That is the most important thing to me. But I guess the ones I hang onto are the ones which I can get the sound I like out of most easily!

[derrenleepoole]

Couldn't agree with the OP more. I still strive for good tone, not so much for a signature voice, but because I understand that good tone helps with being heard on stage and helps with projection etc. But after years of pub gigs etc, I know that tone is purely personal and the majority of the audience couldn't give a damn or actually know what the bass is or does and simply don't care.

My biggest improvement for playing came from moving to short scale bass. This brings with it it's own set of tone issues though. So while my technique is more comfortable, the quest for better tone is perhaps understandable given some of the limitations of the shorter scale.