Awkward Band Problem

[Count Bassy]

I am in a fledgling five piece blues band. Not done anything out yet but first gig end of this month, and two or three more over the next few months.

The problem is that four of us are around the same sort of level but the drummer is just not up to the same standard, by a long way. Its not like we're all brilliant musicians, but the rest of us are way ahead of him and, for various reasons I'll not go into, he's not likely to get any better.

A couple of us realised this a long time ago, but the situation was complicated because the singer is a good friend of the drummer. Anyway, last weekend the subject was broached with the singer who with great relief said that she was glad someone had said so, because she thought the same thing (she hadn't actually heard him play and was taken in by his own opinion of his abilities).

So the four of us are pretty well agreed that the drummer has got to go, but how do we break it to him? Unfortunately he seems to be unaware of the difference in our levels. Indeed, when drunk, (ie often - but that's another matter), he seems to believe that he's one of the best drummers in the world. So not only have we got to sack him, but if he asks why we've got to shatter his illusions as to his ability as well.

To be honest it's got to the point that if we don't sack him than then myself and the Keys/sax player would probably leave the band.

I've never been in this position before, So, given that we don't want to cause more upset than necessary, how do we do it?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.



PS We don't have a manager, so we can't pass the buck.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Clive Thorne

[Bassassin]

Play the gig with him, let him make a right arse of it, and you'll have an excuse.

Jon.

[funkypenguin]

its always a tough one kicking someone out of a band, especially if friendships get involved, along with mud slinging, slander, the whole nine yards.

the two methods ive seen used and would advise are thus

softly, softly: telling individual his/her services are no longer required. Its nothing personal but we dont feel it is working, its for the good of the band (which it most certainly is by the sound of it!) etc. etc.

or.....

Guns Blazing: i.e. something to the effect of, "you're sacked because you're s*** and we dont think we're going anwhere while you're in the band" etc. etc.

i need hardly say that you're more likely to remain on cordial terms with option 1 i suppose it depends how much you like/dislike the person!

its always a bugger. i know what you're going through, my uni band having just sacked our keys player for not practicing and not turning up to rehearsal/gigs on time.

[AM1]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='489450' date='May 16 2009, 01:03 AM']I am in a fledgling five piece blues band. Not done anything out yet but first gig end of this month, and two or three more over the next few months.

The problem is that four of us are around the same sort of level but the drummer is just not up to the same standard, by a long way....[/quote]

The most appropriate method is to tell him - "yo' ass is grass, motherf*cker!"

[skankdelvar]

Split the band, tell him what's happened and then reform one week later without him. Shifty? Yes, but saves all that unpleasantness.

[Stingray5]

Yep, always a tricky one, this.
But you and the rest of the band have to decide how serious you are about the band and making it work.
A previous post suggested your singer telling him, as she's a good friend of the drummer.
You could all get together, maybe over a beer or a cuppa, to tell him as a band. But be nice.
You don't want to seem like you're ganging up on him (which he may well think, either way).
Good luck, whatever you do.

Cheers
Steve

[The Funk]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='489450' date='May 16 2009, 01:03 AM']I've never been in this position before, So, given that we don't want to cause more upset than necessary, how do we do it?[/quote]

The four of you could quit the band and start a new band with a different name.

Or just tell him he's rubbish and he has no plan in place to get up to the same standard as the rest of you. If he's not the best drummer in the world someone will tell him sooner or later.

[The Funk]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='489470' date='May 16 2009, 01:44 AM']Split the band, tell him what's happened and then reform one week later without him. Shifty? Yes, but saves all that unpleasantness.[/quote]

Hah! Skank beat me to it!

[bassbloke]

Bassbloke's guide to sacking band members. I've had to do this so many times.

DO make sure you have a replacement. Speak to your other band members and gauge the opinion. Do you think he's so rubbish that you'd rather put the band on ice whilst you search for a replacement? Very risky. My last band sacked our drummer because he was unreliable. Was the worst thing we ever did. Killed the band as we didn't have a replacement and went through endless auditions before getting back together with him because 'he'd changed'. Of course, he hadn't changed one bit and we'd have been better off working out effective ways of dealing with his unreliability (i.e. driving round to his house and threatening to kick the door down if he didn't turn up for rehearsal). So, if you're dead set on ousting him, start looking now.

DO sack him on neutral ground. The group approach of going down to the pub to break it to him in civilised manner can be effective but is fraught with risks
[list=1]
[*]You have so much resentment building up that your civilised redundancy chat descends into 2 hours of bandmates slagging him off. Has happened twice.
[*]He gets drunk and aggressive and a fight ensures
[*]You all get drunk and induge in some mutual back slapping and forget to sack him.
[/list]

My first band had a particular embarrassing episode where our singer left it to lead guitarist, drummer and I to sack our rhythm guitarist. We failed on bot occasions because we had just ended up drinking and chatting. Our singer flipped, phoned up the guitarist and sacked him. Tact was never his strong points and I believe he opened with something along the lines "I'm having to sack you from the band over the phone because the other three members don't have the guts to tell you to your face". Nice.

DO agree in advance whether you're going to give him another chance. If you reckon the situation is salvageable, then use the chat as a way of spurring him into action. If however, you agree he has to go, don't let one of your bandmates pipe up that he should be given another chance.

DON'T expect to remain friends. Even if you are the crappest pub blues band they'll still regard the sacking as the ultimate act of betrayal. Talent and delusions/grandeur are inversely proportional.

DO think about the alternatives. Tell him he needs to get better really quick if he's going to have a future in the band and tell him yu expect him to put his money where his mouth is and enrol on an intensive course at ACM or somewhere similar. Also, consider banning him from drinking or something as proof of his commitment.

I hope some of this is off help.

Edited May 16, 2009 by bassbloke

[OldGit]

^^ excellent advice from bassbloke.

A friend's band had this situation

The drummer was seriously impeding the progress of the band. Their solution was to "promote" him out of danger - they made him the band's percussionist and got in a real drummer

He loved it 'cos he got into the limelight at the front of the stage and the pressure is a lot less. He also gets to play in a much better band as the drummer is often really key to getting better and doing a good show.

Win all round.

How about that?

Edited May 16, 2009 by OldGit

[Dom in Dorset]

"Split the band and re-form with out X" is a classic, in this case you could refine things by telling X that maybe he's too good for this band? After all you said he thinks he's great.
Joking apart, if you want to bring the situation to a head you could always resign yourself.

[GreeneKing]

There's the method's of getting the sacking over on him by various surreptitious means that in the main make it easier on those doing the sacking and not on the drummer in my way of thinking.

If you get sacked from a band it's going to hurt and he will have to deal with that. It's a lot like ending a relationship, people have to get over it but it hurts and time heals. I'd say be straight, be honest, tell him that his drumming is holding you all back and that he'll have to make way for a new drummer, nothing personal and don't get into a slanging match with the bloke when he 'kicks off'.

[Mickeyboro]

I have recently been in a situation where my services were not required. The bandleader split the band, then re-engaged everyone but me - and I would much have preferred him to be straight up about it.

Mind you, when you join a band whose two keyboard players both own more expensive basses/rigs than you, maybe you should expect these things!

[The Cooler King]

Be straight with him, tell him in a proffesional manner, tell him he doesn't fit into the band, his drumming doesn't work with what you are doing.

What exactly is it that he is doing wrong ?

[TimR]

Well you've learned your lesson. Don't get a musician into the band unless they are as good or better than the rest of you.

Don't split and reform that's childish and doesn't work in the long run as it makes you all look stupid.

One person needs to sit down and tell him what the issues are. Don't do it by email,text or phone. Ask him whether he thinks the issues are solvable, does he want to solve them? Practice, Lessons, AA etc. Put it on the line. He either fixes A,B and C or you will have to find another drummer because he is holding you all back.

Don't do it as a group, it'll all get nasty and look intimidating.

A word of warning though, is a bad keen drummer who can make practices and gigs better than an excellent drummer who misses practices and can't make gigs? Find someone else first!!!

(basically what bassbloke said )

Edited May 16, 2009 by TimR

[Eight]

Yup - basically reiterating bits of what's being said already. I've had to sack people from work in the past (not from bands) and it isn't always as bad as you would think it is.

You have to do it one on one - don't do it over email, telephone etc - be a man about it. Don't get everyone involved because if a discussion errupts, a massive row will soon follow. One person stands a chance of controlling the conversation and making sure the job is done quickly and relatively painlessly.

Be decisive. If you're sacking someone, be sure about it and don't let them humiliate themselves by pleading. If they make any moves in that direction then stop them - "Sorry, it's been decided".

Don't tell him he's sh*t unless you want an argument - he will respond with his own insults. Before you sit down with him, make sure you have some answers to questions like "why", pre-phrased in a more appealing form. "We just don't think what you do is quite right for us anymore". Again, don't entertain responses like "But if you tell me what to do different then I can".

Don't do it after a gig - he'll immediately get narked that you had him play etc. even though you knew he was on his way out.

Don't let play the next gig if he asks. The reasons for this one are obvious.

Splitting the band and reforming without him is one of the most feeble things I've ever heard.

[Eight]

[quote name='TimR' post='489688' date='May 16 2009, 11:57 AM']Ask him whether he thinks the issues are solvable, does he want to solve them?[/quote]
If they've decided to get rid of him then its past the time for this question.

This is a discussion that should have been had before the decision to sack him was made.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='TimR' post='489688' date='May 16 2009, 11:57 AM']Don't split and reform that's childish and doesn't work in the long run as it makes you all look stupid.[/quote]

Once you've been through the 'this is how you need to improve' thing with no success and you've decided someone's irretrievable, they have to go. So how do you give them the hard word? Mostly depends on the individual and the circs, but experience has shown me that my approach works for me.

Childish? Well, I used to do the polite sitdown thing when sacking someone and 90% of the time it ended in disaster. At least two guys burst into tears, another's wife threw things at me. Another one just kept phoning me and begging to be let back in. Most just got angry and / or upset, however nicely you put it.

At the very least, there's an unpleasant finality to being sacked that can be very distressing to the sackee. And after all, why upset someone just to satisfy 'principles'.
Feeble? You could say that this is an approach designed to spare my own feelings, but, trust me, confrontation doesn't bother me; so it ain't for my benefit.

IMO, letting someone down gently is better than a slap in the face. It's a lot kinder, IME.

Edit for: Work-wise, I handle this the other way as eight suggests.

Edited May 16, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Paul_C]

sit him down and ask him which way he'd prefer to be kicked out

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='489793' date='May 16 2009, 01:38 PM']sit him down and ask him which way he'd prefer to be kicked out[/quote]

[Eight]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='489793' date='May 16 2009, 01:38 PM']sit him down and ask him which way he'd prefer to be kicked out[/quote]
Hahahaha.

In reality, as soon as you ask for a private chat he's going to know something is up and will start mentally preparing. If you can get through it all without disrupting his mental process of this is bad but I can take it then it'll go better.

It's like when your girlfriend tells you sit down as you need to talk. You know its either all over or she's pregnant. Think how bad it would be if she then started out by saying something like "I want to buy you that Vigier..." - your brain does a 180 and thinks hang on, this is great news! "Oh and I'm leaving you for your significantly uglier best mate"... you wouldn't know where you were.

[Golchen]

[quote name='TimR' post='489688' date='May 16 2009, 11:57 AM']Well you've learned your lesson. Don't get a musician into the band unless they are as good or better than the rest of you.

Don't split and reform that's childish and doesn't work in the long run as it makes you all look stupid.

One person needs to sit down and tell him what the issues are. Don't do it by email,text or phone. Ask him whether he thinks the issues are solvable, does he want to solve them? Practice, Lessons, AA etc. Put it on the line. He either fixes A,B and C or you will have to find another drummer because he is holding you all back.

Don't do it as a group, it'll all get nasty and look intimidating.

A word of warning though, is a bad keen drummer who can make practices and gigs better than an excellent drummer who misses practices and can't make gigs? Find someone else first!!!

(basically what bassbloke said )[/quote]

I agree with this post.

[tombboy]

I was sacked from a band a long time ago...
Just four mates having a laugh (I had replaced the bass player who was unreliable) and we were getting on fine. However, I was going through a rough time with the (ex) wife and couldn't give my full attention. The guitarist came round one eveing after he finished work and sat down explaining to me that they were asking the old bassist back and that I was 'sacked'. Everything was very adult, nothing hidden and we parted on a handshake. I offered to do their sound for their next gig and remained very good friends until the bassist decided that the band needed two guitarists and moved over, suggesting I took up bass duties again. All fell back in to place and we had a great couple of years together.

If the fella is mature enough then I'm sure he'll understand. At the end of the day, it's only a band.... far more important things to worry about.

[Thunderthumbs]

Without reading the entire thread, we were in exactly the same situation. This is what we did:-

We placed an ad on Partysounds to find a replacement. We had to be ruthless and try and find a permanent replacement before sacking him because of the amount of work we had in.

We found someone, rehearsed with him until he was ready, and then had a "band meeting" at a pub local to the drummer.

It was difficult, as like you, our guitarist was a good friend of his and they used to travel to gigs together.

We sat there for ages, as nobody knew how to start it (and it wasn't going to be me as I'd only been with the band a few months).

Eventually, the guitarist just stumped up the courage and said "We're sorry [insert name here], but we're going to have to replace you". He felt terrible, but he saw the benefit to the band (and probably him as a guitarist) as the greater good.

He tried to almost beg his way back into the band, but we then gave him numerous reasons as to why.....taking far too long to learn material......bringing more and more gear for his kit each week despite not knowing how to just really hold a tight rhythm........his girlfriend was a nightmare.......etc.

We then took the van back to his house and dropped his kit off and left it at that.

So basically, there's no easy way of doing it. It's best just to try and stay calm and tell the guy the truth. If he chooses to fall out with you about it, that's really his problem not yours.

[stu_g]

i think maybe you should let him do a gig, because if he believes he is great already,
he may be suprised when no one congratulates him on his neil peart like deftness whilst rolling the skins
and drunk people always tell the truth ie "your drummers crap"
and that may be a kick in the arse for him to put in some serious practise.

Edited May 16, 2009 by stu_g