A Few Questions to all Short-Scale Bassists.

[Baloney Balderdash]

39 minutes ago, Musicman666 said:

depends what your playing ..say for instance my status headless lends itself very nicely and any jazz bass works great in terms of neck width ...nearly all my basses are d standard these days and capo them from time to time and they play great. I cut my teeth on a musicmaster so i know the pros and cons of shortscale ..so doing this for me is the best of both worlds. Also capo gives your bass a zero fret ...makes the action and playability really spot on. Long scale is balanced and not bulky ..it just has two more frets on the neck. 

What? 

 

No!

 

If the you put a capo on second fret of a long scale bass to use it as a short scale bass the effective result compared to a real short scale bass would be as I described:

4 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

But with a wider nut width, and fretboard in general, with 2 less frets, a bigger bulky body and a huge hangover at the headstock.

 

Edited March 21 by Baloney Balderdash

[Musicman666]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

What? 

 

No!

 

If the you put a capo on second fret of a long scale bass to use it as a short scale bass the effective result compared to a real short scale bass would be as I described:

 yeah when playing a long scale at the second fret all i can think about is how wide the neck is and how much the headstock sticks out with this huge bulky body..🙄

Edited March 21 by Musicman666

[Andyjr1515]

I think I am not alone in being surprised and bemused by the original assumption that a shorter scale = a propensity to neck dive.  All other things being equal** then it is the exact opposite.  The leverage effect of the headstock weight at the end of a bass neck is high.  Reduce the length and you reduce the leverage and the probability of neck dive.

 

**  But of course all other things are often not equal

 

And so I started looking at the shortscale basses on the market, from a bass and guitar-builder's perspective.  And that perspective is, from a neck dive point of view:

 

Lighter body = greater chance of neck dive

 

Smaller body = greater chance of being lighter = greater chance of neck dive

 

Strap pin further back from 12th fret line = greater chance of neck dive

 

Longer the neck = greater leverage from the headstock = greater chance of neck dive

 

In line tuners = greater leverage from the headstock = greater chance of neck dive

 

High-mass tuners = greater leverage from the headstock = greater chance of neck dive

 

Greater number of tuners = greater leverage from the headstock = greater chance of neck dive

 

Larger headstock = greater chance of neck dive

 

 

And you can play 'swings and roundabouts' with the above factors.  Or, if you like neck dive, you can play 'pennies on the scale'.

 

The Fender P Bass has: A heavy body; a strap pin very close to 12th fret...and it balances

 

So my assessment for  @thebrig 's two basses that have given him problems is:

 

Fender Mustang 30"  (great bass, by the way!)   Strap pin OK ; Short scale GOOD ; Small  and light body BAD       Conclusion:    It should be OK, but the body is probably just that little bit too light and short (which affects also the back strap pin position).  Solution: lightweight tuners will help reduce the neck dive 

 

Gibson SG Short Scale  (iconic, but...)     Short scale GOOD; Two a side Tuners GOOD;  Strap pin Position UNBELIEVABLY BAD      Welcome to the SG/EB owners self-help community  

 

 

I can guarantee, without looking at any reviews that the Gretsch G2220 Junior, the Epiphone EB-O short scales will also be bad, but that the Ibanez GSRM20 Micro is probably going to be good. 

 

 

 

Edited March 21 by Andyjr1515

[Schnozzalee]

1 hour ago, Musicman666 said:

 yeah when playing a long scale at the second fret all i can think about is how wide the neck is and how much the headstock sticks out with this huge bulky body..🙄

And then you drop it and run away like Raheem Sterling

[thisisswanbon]

I don't notice any neck dive with my squier classic vibe mustang, although my strap is an old leather strap with a felt style material underneath.

 

For reference, I'm 6ft 2" tall - 4ft wide, and my main basses are the squier, a Sandberg Cali II VT4HCA and a sire V5R jazz.

 

For me I found the switch from long scale to short a lot easier than going from short back to my long scale. Pros and cons as follows:

Pros: 

- Lighter

- More comfortable when playing 1 finger per fret

- Less hand, wrist and elbow fatigue

- Lower string tension

- Has more "Thud" in the mix

 

Cons:

- My C4 doesn't track as well with this bass

- Harder to get a "growl" from (could be the squier pick ups)

- Easy to forget you've got less frets when noodling up the dusty end

 

I'll say that my VT4 is my ride or die (sold it once and was SO glad to have it back) - but the squier sees more gigging action these days 

 

[Musicman666]

27 minutes ago, Schnozzalee said:

And then you drop it and run away like Raheem Sterling

 

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

 

Fender Mustang 30"  (great bass, by the way!)   Strap pin OK ; Short scale GOOD ; Small  and light body BAD       Conclusion:    It should be OK, but the body is probably just that little bit too light and short (which affects also the back strap pin position).  Solution: lightweight tuners will help reduce the neck dive 

 

I agree Andy, having just put on a set of Ultralites onto my lightest (about 7.2lbs) JMJ Mustang it`s sorted the neck dive on it. I`ve another 2 which as they are heavier (still only 8lbs) the neck dive isn`t an issue.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 15/03/2024 at 08:15, thebrig said:

1. How long does it take to adjust to going from long-scale to short-scale?

2. How do you manage the inevitable neck-dive that you usually get with most short-scale basses, would changing the tuners to lightweight tuners make any noticeable difference?

 

1 - 30 seconds.

 

2 - I  find short scales tend not to neck dive.

[thebrig]

Over the years I have owned a Fender US Mustang, a Fender Japan Mustang, a Squier Mustang, a Gibson SG 60th Anniversary SS, a Gibson SG Standard SS, a Chowney SG style SS, and every single one of them had neck-dive, the only short-scale bass I've owned that didn't neck-dive was a Ibanez Micro which was quite well balanced, but the 28" scale was just a bit too small for me.

 

As for my original post? All I said was, "How do you manage the inevitable neck-dive that you usually get with most short-scale basses?" Not all short-scale basses.

 

And in my case, it is in most of the short-scale basses that I've tried and owned over the years.

[thebrig]

Btw, I use wide leather straps.

 

I think Andyjr1515 has given most of the reasons why some short-scale basses tend to suffer from neck-dive.

Edited March 21 by thebrig

[Stub Mandrel]

1 minute ago, thebrig said:

Over the years I have owned a Fender US Mustang, a Fender Japan Mustang, a Squier Mustang, a Gibson SG 60th Anniversary SS, a Gibson SG Standard SS, a Chowney SG style SS, and every single one of them had neck-dive, the only short-scale bass I've owned that didn't neck-dive was a Ibanez Micro which was quite well balanced, but the 28" scale was just a bit too small for me.

 

As for my original post? All I said was, "How do you manage the inevitable neck-dive that you usually get with most short-scale basses?" Not all short-scale basses.

 

And in my case, it is in most of the short-scale basses that I've tried and owned over the years.

 

I  have two shorties with no issues and can't remember having any problems with a mustang either.

 

 I have a small bodied long scale five string that ought to be a diver, I just fitted a neoprene strap and have never had a problem.

 

That said, I have 17 very varied basses and can't think of any neck dive issues, so maybe my technique avoids it or I am instictively tolerant of neck dive.

[Schnozzalee]

34 minutes ago, Musicman666 said:

 

 

He ^ eats quorn because he swoons and the sight of blood.

 

Frank Spencer plays a short scale 5er... "Mmm Betty! Betty!! Look at me. I'm doing it, I'm really doing it."

 

[thebrig]

1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I  have two shorties with no issues and can't remember having any problems with a mustang either.

 

 I have a small bodied long scale five string that ought to be a diver, I just fitted a neoprene strap and have never had a problem.

 

That said, I have 17 very varied basses and can't think of any neck dive issues, so maybe my technique avoids it or I am instictively tolerant of neck dive.

I think my main problem is that I suffer from arthritis in my neck, shoulders and back, and whilst some neck-dive is not an issue for most people, for me, I feel I am holding the neck up while I'm playing and this puts extra pressure on my shoulder making it tense up, and is very painful after only a few minutes playing.

[Andyjr1515]

26 minutes ago, thebrig said:

I think my main problem is that I suffer from arthritis in my neck, shoulders and back, and whilst some neck-dive is not an issue for most people, for me, I feel I am holding the neck up while I'm playing and this puts extra pressure on my shoulder making it tense up, and is very painful after only a few minutes playing.

Yes - that matters a lot.  Arthritis is a b****r. 

 

I have it in my hands and, for me, often I actually do use a neck heel button (bit like an acoustic) to tilt the guitar or bass body away from me a touch.  It means I can't see the frets, but it means that my fretting hand isn't twisted as much as in the more conventional body angle.   

 

If you are able to try one out in a shop or a 'return if it doesn't suit' arrangement, I would have a look at some of the Ibanez short scale offerings - I think you would find that they sit quite differently to the types you've had in the past.  And go for a medium weight rather than lightweight - the strain of a light but neck-heavy bass is worse than a heavier well-balanced one... 

 

[thebrig]

1 minute ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Yes - that matters a lot.  Arthritis is a b****r. 

 

I have it in my hands and, for me, often I actually do use a neck heel button (bit like an acoustic) to tilt the guitar or bass body away from me a touch.  It means I can't see the frets, but it means that my fretting hand isn't twisted as much as in the more conventional body angle.   

 

If you are able to try one out in a shop or a 'return if it doesn't suit' arrangement, I would have a look at some of the Ibanez short scale offerings - I think you would find that they sit quite differently to the types you've had in the past.  And go for a medium weight rather than lightweight - the strain of a light but neck-heavy bass is worse than a heavier well-balanced one... 

 

Totally agree with you on the heavier well-balanced one is better than a lightweight un-balanced one.

 

I know I said that the Sire Marcus Miller U5 I've just bought felt perfectly balanced, well after playing it standing up for around 30 minutes it put so much strain on my shoulders and neck, I had to stop.

Then after a short break, I returned to my P bass and played for an hour without anywhere near the pain, so I've decided that I'm going to return the Sire, unfortunately.

[Andyjr1515]

There was a guy at one of the bass bashes I was at a few years ago, maybe the South West one but could have been the South East one, who had an unusual but very effective strap arrangement.  From what I remember, it was for just this kind of issue.  If he's reading this, maybe he could chip in? 

 

For my tenor sax, I've just invested in a higher-tech strap than the general 'car-belt webbing and a hook' ones most of us use and it's transformed my ability to play - which was starting to get very difficult.

[Musicman666]

6 hours ago, Schnozzalee said:

 

He ^ eats quorn because he swoons and the sight of blood.

 

Frank Spencer plays a short scale 5er... "Mmm Betty! Betty!! Look at me. I'm doing it, I'm really doing it."

 

i'm not quite sure what your point is here mate ... i posted in response to the op who plays long scale but was asking about shortscale and i merely responded by saying you can try it out without buying one ... i own a shortscale too, im not against using them if that's what your hinting at. 

Edited March 21 by Musicman666

[3below]

Gibson SG bass neck dive solved with Hipshot ultralites.  This is my go to bass, light, balanced, short scale.  It is not perfect, the E string lacks a little something compared to my long scale basses.   Chowny SWB-1 neck dive 95% sorted with some s/h BC Hipshots from a Cort.  Strangely (in view of the Physics) the Chowny balances better with a strap-lock fitted to one of the neck bolts rather than the top horn.  @Andyjr1515 has all the right answers (from my perspective as an ageing Physicist)  on why short scale neck dive happens. 

 

Here's something I built a while back, 32" scale length.   Absolutely no neck dive, 7.9 Lb and no Hipshots ... read on

 

 

Anti dive provided by  a 1 Lb block of lead at the bridge end and Retrovibe machine heads - a few g more than ultralites, way cheaper and just as good imo. Moments about pivots again.  The parallel neck shape was an experiment following a 3 string CBG build.  Not to be repeated.

Edited April 20 by 3below

[fretmeister]

My shortie Sandberg is the best balanced instrument I’ve ever had.

 

My shortie Jim Deacon had bad neck drive as the P bass body was undersized and the tuners were massive old big plate things. Solved completely with Hipshot Ultralights. 
 

I think the traditional view of shorties = neck dive is just because older design shorties tended to be crap for all the reasons Andy pointed out. It had zero to do with the scale length and everything to do with all other factors. A 50 inch scale bass designed as poorly as an SG would suffer just as much. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

23 hours ago, 3below said:

Gibson SG bass neck dive solved with Hipshot ultralites.  This is my go to bass, light, balanced, short scale.  It is not perfect, the E string lacks a little something compared to my long scale basses.   Chowny SWB-1 neck dive 95% sorted with some s/h BC Hipshots from a Cort.  Strangely (in view of the Physics) the Chowny balances better with a strap-lock fitted to one of the neck bolts rather than the top horn.  @Andyjr1515 has all the right answers (from my perspective as an ageing Physicist)  on why short scale neck dive happens. 

 

Here's something I built a while back, 32" scale length.   Absolutely no neck dive, 7.9 Lb and no Hipshots ... read on

 

 

Anti dive provided by  a 1 Lb block of lead at the bridge end and Retrovibe machine heads - a few g more than ultralites, way cheaper and just as good imo. Moments about pivots again.  The parallel neck shape was an experiment following a 3 string CBG build.  Not to be repeated.

Cool! 

 

23 hours ago, 3below said:

The parallel neck shape was an experiment following a 3 string CBG build.  Not to be repeated.

Well, it worked/works for Höfner.

 

13 hours ago, fretmeister said:

My shortie Sandberg is the best balanced instrument I’ve ever had.

 

My shortie Jim Deacon had bad neck drive as the P bass body was undersized and the tuners were massive old big plate things. Solved completely with Hipshot Ultralights. 
 

I think the traditional view of shorties = neck dive is just because older design shorties tended to be crap for all the reasons Andy pointed out. It had zero to do with the scale length and everything to do with all other factors. A 50 inch scale bass designed as poorly as an SG would suffer just as much. 

This!

 

Edited Sunday at 22:03 by Baloney Balderdash

[Paolo85]

Back to the OP's question, I found myself in a similar situation lately with backache issues, on days when I was practicing hard in view of starting to play with other people.

Much like the OP, I have realised that "normal" short scale basses do not work for me.

But I have found, at good prices here on the classifieds, two alternatives that do work

-Ibanez mezzo 32 scale. It is just a good compromise. Plus, like most soundgears, it has an extremely comfortable shape, it is very light, and has a great balance

-Harley Benton HB60.. and I imagine other short-scale semihollow could be even better. Unlike normal short scale basses, these are not small. They are as long as a P bass, because the body extends way after the bridge. So you get the short-scale comfort for the fretting hand, but the bass is positioned somewhat similarly to a P in terms of where the hands fall.

The bass is light, but it is a neck diver. However, because of the very wide body, the plucking hand's forearm can rest on the body when the bass is on the strap, without resulting in a funny angle for the wrist. This keeps the bass in position. To be honest, I still think the HB does not feel amazing. I use a dual strap to make it work smoothly. But I tried an Aria semihollow in a shop last weekend, and the neck was so light that holding the body as described was a breeze. So I guess there are certainly options available (I imagine for example a guild starfire, which has a smaller nut width, and tuners, while big, could be replaced with hipshot licensed ultralight. But that's just a guess)

 

Hope this helps

Edited Wednesday at 15:06 by Paolo85

[Greg Edwards69]

I bought a sub-shortscale Jackson Minion as a backup bass. I was expecting a substantial transition period to get used to it, but I felt at home instantly - even jumping up and down the fretboard with accuracy. Maybe due it's years of playing guitar as well as full size and mini key keyboards (not to mention sax and clarinet in my youth) that I'm able to transition fairly easily*. FWIW, I find it more comfortable to play when seated that my long scale basses - it actually feels more natural.

 

No neck dive problems. The lightweight sealed tuners probably help. But I think the body design with a strap button that is parallel with the 12th fret helps more.

 

*BEAD tuning on the fly from my Helix is a different matter entirely that challenges my brain.

Edited Wednesday at 15:14 by Greg Edwards69

[LeftyJ]

30 minutes ago, Paolo85 said:

-Harley Benton HB60.. and I imagine other short-scale semihollow could be even better. Unlike normal short scale basses, these are not small. They are as long as a P bass, because the body extends way after the bridge. So you get the short-scale comfort for the fretting hand, but the bass is positioned somewhat similarly to a P in terms of where the hands fall.

 

May be worth checking out a Squier Rascal. It's a solidbody shortscale, but the bridge sits relatively far forward so it's equal in length to a longscale P-bass. I don't know about weight, but being a fairly large offset body I imagine it could be somewhat heavy. 

[crazycloud]

8 hours ago, LeftyJ said:

May be worth checking out a Squier Rascal. It's a solidbody shortscale, but the bridge sits relatively far forward so it's equal in length to a longscale P-bass.

And the reach to first position is at least as bad as a full scale bass.

 

Most of the FSO type SS's with large 4IL headstocks have some level of dive, sometimes significant, whereas my 2+2 small headstock Cort and Samicks don't at all, even with stock tuners.

[Japhet]

Have been using an Ibanez Talman 4 string for a fair while now. No sign of any neck dive and the sound has bags of grunt. A few other people have played it and have been really impressed too. I also like it because I invariably end up with so little space to move in and short scale just makes it a bit easier.