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Class D - diabolical


rhysyjob

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25 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

One things for sure too say people cant tell the differences between an a/b and a class d amp is just plain stupid

Got any proper test data? Nope, it's all anecdotal preferences.

 

On the other hand there is one well known trial where nobody could tell the two apart despite insistence that the class D was not worthy of the brand.

 

There's a bazillion Class D amps out there thumping away happily and a handful of non believers raging against the Diabolicalness with nothing but their preferences.

 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Of course the powered speaker is class D with a SMPS

I dont care, I'm not hearing it.

Also, I don't hate on class D. Like everything, there is good and bad. Plenty of big PA rigs absolutely slaying it with class D behind it. If you look through what I've said, I haven't got a problem with class D. I just think that if you are running a PA, carrying around a bass rig is surplus to requirements. I've never made any secret of that - and will still advocate it's a better route for most bands to both sound better and protect their ears.

Edited by EBS_freak
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37 minutes ago, rhysyjob said:

.

 

They are also free of political agenda.

 

 

 

Like people who prefer class D want to reduce the benefits paid to single disabled mothers?

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21 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Got any proper test data? Nope, it's all anecdotal preferences.

 

On the other hand there is one well known trial where nobody could tell the two apart despite insistence that the class D was not worthy of the brand.

 

There's a bazillion Class D amps out there thumping away happily and a handful of non believers raging against the Diabolicalness with nothing but their preferences.

 

Test ????????? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 thousands of pounds down the drain buddy is all the tests i need. And your saying only a handfull of working bass players using a/b.... Have you got proof of that 😂

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3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

What story is that then?

The story that one amp class is superior or inferior to another. Are the different? Yes when driven into severe distortion. We all go into the discussion with biases and preconceptions* but when blind  listening tests are conducted you get a truer reflection of what an amp or audio system can achieve..

 

 

*except me of course 😇

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3 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

Test ????????? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 thousands of pounds down the drain buddy is all the tests i need. And your saying only a handfull of working bass players using a/b.... Have you got proof of that 😂

I'm talking about the handful of Basschatters here railing against the world.

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I have both types, but prefer the sound of my Ashdown ABM 500 combos when it is practically use them. When I am playing at low volume levels or at a venue with difficult access (and no one willing to help move my gear), I'll use my class D amps and a single speaker. By the time I've carried an ABM combo up a flight or two of stairs I'm in no state to play for a while!

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1 minute ago, FinnDave said:

ABM combo

Those old ones weigh about same as a Marshall Jubilee 410 but bigger. Two of us moved one up one very old single flight single story stair climb once. It was scary for the fact it could have killed someone if it had gotten away on us. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

theres a big wide world outside of bass chat brother.........

Yeah, I am all the way on the other side of it. It's about 50/50 for mod cons on stage. We are majorly reamed on new gear prices down here.

 

A lot comes in by private import by my estimation. Internet used sales rarely say ''NZ new''.

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1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Got any proper test data? Nope, it's all anecdotal preferences.

 

On the other hand there is one well known trial where nobody could tell the two apart despite insistence that the class D was not worthy of the brand.

 

 

Got any proper test data on this well-known trial?

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1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

The story that one amp class is superior or inferior to another. Are the different? Yes when driven into severe distortion. We all go into the discussion with biases and preconceptions* but when blind  listening tests are conducted you get a truer reflection of what an amp or audio system can achieve..

 

 

*except me of course 😇

Not me. I haven't even commented on that kind of story at all.

 

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50 minutes ago, stevie said:

 

Got any proper test data on this well-known trial?

Only my recollection of Agedhorse's story told on another forum. My first mention of it on this thread was noticed by the man himself so you can take it as fact.

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Posted (edited)
On 29/04/2022 at 17:58, rhysyjob said:

The emergence of class D heads had me very excited! 800 watts in small box light box. No more lugging around huge transformers, great!

 

Except apart from the easy carry the rest of the story has been pretty erm stinky poo!!

 

Despite 8 years, five heads and every Eq patten under the sun. I simply cannot get on with the sound at volume. 😬

 

I”ve tried TC Electronics (BH 550) Aguilar (TH500) Tech 21 (VT) Markbass (Tube 800) and finally Mesa Boogie (D800) and no matter if you put a valve in front of them, a compressor before them, a neo or a ceramic speaker from them, or summon a religious cult behind them. They sound too direct at volume to my ears.

 

I tried, but I’m going back to my Class A/B happy place! 😊

 

I think my hearing has definitely seen better days as I can't tell much difference with my Italian MB LM3 class A/B and Indonesian MB Little Marcus 500 class D.  I guess at least it helps my pocket.

Edited by martthebass
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4 minutes ago, martthebass said:

 

I think my hearing has definitely seen better days as I can't tell much difference with my Italian MB LM3 class A/B and Indonesian MB Little Marcus 500 class D.  I guess at least it helps my pocket.

This was my experience with my class D and class AB LM3 amps. I convinced myself that the AB was slightly fuller sounding but that could've been down to other preamp design enhancements. Maybe the HPF was changed slightly? I could still EQ the amps to sound the same at home but didn't attempt to compare on a gig.

As for reliability, I believe that electronics that run cooler have a better chance of living longer. My AB was always pretty warm at the end of the night, the D was much cooler. I'm sure that both had appropriate thermal management but I hear of people complaining when their class AB LM2/LM3 failed after 10 years of use, which may very well have been the intended design life.

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1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Only my recollection of Agedhorse's story told on another forum. My first mention of it on this thread was noticed by the man himself so you can take it as fact.

 

No, that's hearsay.

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I think in this thread, heresy might be to say that my ABM is possibly my favourite amp ever, and the RM800 just couldn't get close so I got rid of it...

 

ABM1000-RM800.jpg.a8f4462ff6fe18f5b2625ebde772f867.jpg

 

...but only if I drop into conversation that it's an ABM1000, which has a class D power stage. 🙂 

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48 minutes ago, rhysyjob said:

Can someone clarify if that is Class AB heresy or Class D Heresy?

 

If it’s Class D heresy the fire will be cooler. 😂

If it comes to coolness, then Liberty X were always the cooler out of the pair.

Liberty-X-Fashion-Throwback-8_750x500.jp

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10 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

 

So in that case I would say I never found a preamp I clicked with on the Cass D's owned, but had a very good hit rate on the A/B's.

Quite a coincidence!

It might be a coincidence, but it's also just as likely (maybe more likely) that you prefer the voicings that were more common in the older designs. Preamp (and speaker) voicings have evolved a lot in the 40 years that I have been designing products and this has been driven primarily by changing player preferences along with changes in music styles. One of the best examples of this that I can think of (off the top of my head) is the Darkglass models, they are what the industry refers to as "Euro-modern hard rock/metal" and is quite different from products we used to offer in our lines (Carbines and Strategy/Prodigy) which were American hard rock/metal oriented. The Euro tone evolved from the American tone as the music itself evolved. Because class D wasn't available (in practice) when these older products were developed, they were by default class AB. When Darkglass revisited this theme with their approach, class D was available and a practical option so that's the direction that they went. The appear to be very successful for those players seeking that voicing.

 

I did test a Carbine preamp with a class D power amp, it was close enough that nobody was really sure which power amp they were listening to when testing... but that voicing was becoming less and less popular so the decision was made to evolve the Subway line into something that followed the evolving tastes.

 

In no way does it make you wrong for preferring the amps that you like, but there's a lot more involved than just the amp class.

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7 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Only my recollection of Agedhorse's story told on another forum. My first mention of it on this thread was noticed by the man himself so you can take it as fact.

Yes, it is true.

 

Actually, there are several stories and one (not involving class D specifically but involving confirmation bias and over-confidence in listening abilities) where I rigged a double-blind listening test to select between the same power amp and added only 1/2dB to one amp's level caused a high percentage of people to be "positive" they were listening to two different amps (presented to the group as 2 quite different circuits). Of course there was the cork sniffing swagger, the golden ears proclaiming all kinds of absurdities, the hyperbole, etc. When the curtain was parted and they saw that they had been listening to the SAME amp, the excuses started coming out and it became clear that I had just finished my last day with that company (and the high end Hi-Fi industry as a whole). This was in 1981 or 82 and I was planning on quitting the next day anyway, so it wasn't an unexpected or even unwanted outcome ;)  (This industry was just full of snake-oil marketing that had no bearing on reality or truth of any kind).

 

The point being that even a small difference in level, or in preamp voicing can make a much bigger impression than most folks realize. 

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