Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Chienmortbb]

39 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

For me the evox has been pretty transformational.

It is heavy, much heavier than the altos, but not too surprising, it is in a wooden box and has poles etc, whereas the Alto is a plastic box that is just one speaker and a little horn thing.

However, the additional clarity (and volume) it has given to the sound has been great - I realise at this point I am not comparing like for like, but I am not able, or willing to just go out and buy the latest expensive things, and also I am the one that stores them and they are pushing the room I have.

I have my doubts about the size of the treble drivers and the frequencies they do, but I am happy with my (second hand and < £500) purchase.

I don't care about monitoring - I bought the PA, I bring and setup the PA, I use in-ears to listen, it sounds great to me, the drummer also uses in ears. The old guitarist occasionaly complained he couldn't hear much to which I told him many times he was welcome to either get in ears or buy himself a monitor, there is an output ready for it, but it is not something I need, want to buy or store, so of course nothing happened. The singer used to have a monitor which broke and was never replaced. He seems happy enough with the evox. The new guitarist was surprised at the lack of monitor, but said he had no problem at our first gig.

 

I would like to hear one. As I said I have not heard the RCF, and I am basing my opinion on Bose, LD and Yamaha.

[Paul S]

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

For me the evox has been pretty transformational.

 

 

 

I'd say the same.  Of all the 'pub bands' I've been associated with over the years this is the best pa I've experienced for all sorts of reasons.  Ours are the RCF EVOX 8 V2 which I see has been discontinued.  They are plastic boxes, not wood, each unit weighs 22kg, I think.  Luckily drummer Joe is a young, fit farmer and carries one in each hand to load in an out.  I might have done 20 years ago but not these days!  They are superfast to set up, no heavy lifting onto tripods, no fear of drunken punters sending the whole lot crashing to the ground.  No monitors.  Of course none of that would matter if they didn't sound good but they have astonishing clarity and dispersion.  My bass sound has never been better and - the HUGE bonus - no bass backline.  It is just so liberating, not having to worry about that whole side of things.  I just have my DI/eq pedal set and that's the job done.  

 

We are a 3 piece, so not unduly complicated from the start.  Usually we just put 2 x vox, bass and kick drum through it and, with the various volumes set for our usual pub situation, the whole thing is just coasting - there is loads of headroom available should we need it.  We have our own rehearsal space and, just for the hell of it, have put 2 x vox, bass, mic'd guitar, all the drums mic'd up a couple of times and it sounded awesome.  We have a gig later this year at 'Barleylands Blues Club', which I believe is a little bigger than the usual pub space, where we supply the pa so we should be able to give it a proper workout. 

 

I am not for a minute saying it is the best solution for everyone but, for us, and the type of music and venues we play, it is just perfect.  3 years ago I got a bundle of 2 x B stock units (boxes were open but plastic inside wasn't!), Soundcraft Sig 16 desk (overkill, it transpires) + case and all the leads for £2K and I reckon that was a bargain.

[Al Krow]

15 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

That may be your problem. Compressors pretty much always cause feedback issues. I just wouldn't use them with a live band unless I was working just as FOH mixing. Even then I'd only use them rarely on vocals if at all. They are really something for studio use.  Guitarists use them to increase sustain which is itself the result of a feedback loop where the sound from the amp makes the strings vibrate sustaining the sound.

 

Phil - that's a different angle on the use of compressors than I've previously heard articulated. Be interested if you could you elaborate for us please - was your point just in relation to vocals or also for other instruments including bass?

[Woodinblack]

I don't yet put the bass through the PA, but a few weeks ago when practicing I forgot my power leads, and it turned out I only had two mains leads on me. As is the way in our band, I am the guy with spares, so noone other than me had any, so couldn't power my amp or pedal board.

So with 2 all I could power was the PA and the Mixer, so rather than go home and get more I decided as it was just a practice I would go bass->desk and desk to Evox. Wasn't looking forward to that. Turns out, apart from missing the echos and stuff I needed for some songs, I didn't really miss the amp at all. I think for future practices I will save myself the hassle of dragging my bass amp (hardly a hassle there!) or my bass speaker, I will just take the PA and maybe my B1Four with approximations of effects I need, so bass, mic, mic stand, Evox and B1Four. That would be so little effort compared to normal.

and then I may need to start reconsidering why I take a bass amp to gigs - maybe the next gig I will take the bass amp and stuff, and set it up but just go through the PA and see if it messes stuff up. If I had a 2nd Evox, I would certainly do it.

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I would like to hear one. As I said I have not heard the RCF, and I am basing my opinion on Bose, LD and Yamaha.

 

@Paul S hope you don't mind me sharing this once more  - couple of Evox 8 in action in a live and decently loud(!) rock set up.

 

 

[Al Krow]

37 minutes ago, Paul S said:

I'd say the same.  Of all the 'pub bands' I've been associated with over the years this is the best pa I've experienced for all sorts of reasons.  Ours are the RCF EVOX 8 V2 which I see has been discontinued.  They are plastic boxes, not wood, each unit weighs 22kg, I think.  Luckily drummer Joe is a young, fit farmer and carries one in each hand to load in an out.  I might have done 20 years ago but not these days!  They are superfast to set up, no heavy lifting onto tripods, no fear of drunken punters sending the whole lot crashing to the ground.  No monitors.  Of course none of that would matter if they didn't sound good but they have astonishing clarity and dispersion.  My bass sound has never been better and - the HUGE bonus - no bass backline.  It is just so liberating, not having to worry about that whole side of things.  I just have my DI/eq pedal set and that's the job done.  

 

We are a 3 piece, so not unduly complicated from the start.  Usually we just put 2 x vox, bass and kick drum through it and, with the various volumes set for our usual pub situation, the whole thing is just coasting - there is loads of headroom available should we need it.  We have our own rehearsal space and, just for the hell of it, have put 2 x vox, bass, mic'd guitar, all the drums mic'd up a couple of times and it sounded awesome.  We have a gig later this year at 'Barleylands Blues Club', which I believe is a little bigger than the usual pub space, where we supply the pa so we should be able to give it a proper workout. 

 

I am not for a minute saying it is the best solution for everyone but, for us, and the type of music and venues we play, it is just perfect.  3 years ago I got a bundle of 2 x B stock units (boxes were open but plastic inside wasn't!), Soundcraft Sig 16 desk (overkill, it transpires) + case and all the leads for £2K and I reckon that was a bargain.

 

I at least ended up with a Soundcraft Sig 12 desk in the end, even if we didn't go for the Evox 8 - was probably sub-consciously influenced by your set up, haha! But agreed you'd probably find the Sig 10 model more than sufficient for your 3 piece.

 

[Paul S]

Here's a song from last night, one of our new ones (which kind of drifted towards the end of the solo) but gives a nice impression of the sound of the pa - vox, bass and kick drum.  Recorded on an iPad.  Link from FB won't embed.

 

https://fb.watch/iVKumNnib8/

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, Paul S said:

Here's a song from last night, one of our new ones (which kind of drifted towards the end of the solo) but gives a nice impression of the sound of the pa - vox, bass and kick drum.  Recorded on an iPad.  Link from FB won't embed.

 

https://fb.watch/iVKumNnib8/

 

Bass is very clear in the mix on that one Paul, and particularly so as it's been recorded via an iPad internal mic rather than a dedicated recording mic. You'd mentioned you'd not got the bass set particularly high at the gig I went along to (my post above).

[Paul S]

43 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Bass is very clear in the mix on that one Paul, and particularly so as it's been recorded via an iPad internal mic rather than a dedicated recording mic. You'd mentioned you'd not got the bass set particularly high at the gig I went along to (my post above).

Yes, that's right.  Drummer was complaining he couldn't hear the guitar very clearly so we cut the bass.  Too much, in retrospect.  But it was clear as a bell last night.

[Phil Starr]

19 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

Phil - that's a different angle on the use of compressors than I've previously heard articulated. Be interested if you could you elaborate for us please - was your point just in relation to vocals or also for other instruments including bass?

Audio feedback probably deserves it's own thread Al . The short answer is experience, try turning any compression on the vocal mics off if you are having problems. That could apply to drum mics too and any other mikes that are picking up sound on stage. They are less likely to be causing problems simply because they are probably operating with less gain because the sound source is louder. Anything DI'd is really unlikely to be the source of feedback which is one reason sound engineers are so keen on them.

 

The reason is pretty simple too; compression brings up the level of the quieter sounds and so means that mic is going to feedback more easily than one which doesn't keep turning itself up in the quiet passages. Limiting which I suppose is compression used differently could be helpful but the one knob compression a lot of decks carry are a menace when used unwisely.

 

If you have a sound engineer sitting at your desk then lot's of things are possible but if like me the PA is 'set and forget' then the KISS principle applies.

 

 

[Phil Starr]

On 24/02/2023 at 20:50, Woodinblack said:

these were my changes to get rid of feedback, which largely worked. Probably more the noise gates.

And also just put a notch on the sax at the feedback frequency that helped a lot

From Sound on Sound 

 

"Compression can be extremely useful in dealing with the wide dynamic ranges of acoustic instruments, but it can also be troublesome where feedback is concerned. Assuming that make-up gain is being applied, compression will have the effect of 'making the quiet bits louder', which will indeed smooth out a performance, but if a channel is running close to feedback before compression is applied, adding it will probably make the situation worse. In short, when engineering a live gig, compress lightly!"

 

The notch filter on the sax will really help and the positioning of the mic will affect resonances so spending time with your sax player away from the gig could be useful to get a consistent howl free sound.

 

Poor mic technique from the singer is often the biggest problem. The PA and sound person is going to be blamed for that too, good luck with that  Holding the mic at the knobbly end destroys the directional nature of the mic and pointing it at anywhere other than their mouths is just madness, as is pointing it at the most echoing corner they can find. I've had singers stuff mics down their cleavage or hold them in the folds of their stomachs or on a hard wooden floor between songs rather than use the conveniently placed and appropriately named mic stand. Feedback always my fault, am I bitter?

 

Most of your solutions are in the physical world, not the desk This might be a useful read https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/preventing-acoustic-feedback-stage

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Audio feedback probably deserves it's own thread Al . The short answer is experience, try turning any compression on the vocal mics off if you are having problems. That could apply to drum mics too and any other mikes that are picking up sound on stage. They are less likely to be causing problems simply because they are probably operating with less gain because the sound source is louder. Anything DI'd is really unlikely to be the source of feedback which is one reason sound engineers are so keen on them.

 

The reason is pretty simple too; compression brings up the level of the quieter sounds and so means that mic is going to feedback more easily than one which doesn't keep turning itself up in the quiet passages. Limiting which I suppose is compression used differently could be helpful but the one knob compression a lot of decks carry are a menace when used unwisely.

 

If you have a sound engineer sitting at your desk then lot's of things are possible but if like me the PA is 'set and forget' then the KISS principle applies.

 

Hi Phil - thanks very much for that. So your point about compressors is only in relation to vocal or drum mics picking up sound on stage rather than e.g. a bass pedal board compressor, correct? 

How does DI'ing help with eliminating the impact of a compressor on a desk?

Be delighted if you started an audio feedback thread! Not least as both our singers have similar Sennheiser wireless mics but one of them is able to wander into the audience in front of the FOH speakers without getting feedback, whereas the other much more often does get feedback issues. Having PA speakers with more headroom and being able to turn the gain down at the desk does seem to help, as the singer with the more powerful vocals manages to avoid feedback with most PA set-ups including our 310As, whereas the second has less feedback when using with the higher rated 912As.

I'll take a read of that soundonsound article you've kindly linked.

[Jack]

If the gear is identical in the signal chain after the mic, then the issue is before the mic. Is one singer much louder? Better mic technique? More cogent of where the speakers are whilst they're on their walkabout? 

[Phil Starr]

42 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Hi Phil - thanks very much for that. So your point about compressors is only in relation to vocal or drum mics picking up sound on stage rather than e.g. a bass pedal board compressor, correct? 

How does DI'ing help with eliminating the impact of a compressor on a desk?

Be delighted if you started an audio feedback thread! Not least as both our singers have similar Sennheiser wireless mics but one of them is able to wander into the audience in front of the FOH speakers without getting feedback, whereas the other much more often does get feedback issues. Having PA speakers with more headroom and being able to turn the gain down at the desk does seem to help, as the singer with the more powerful vocals manages to avoid feedback with most PA set-ups including our 310As, whereas the second has less feedback when using with the higher rated 912As.

I'll take a read of that soundonsound article you've kindly linked.

Ha ha , my expertise is keeping things simple, there are a lot of people better qualified than me to do a feedback "bible". I think Russ maybe commented on the evil of compressors on this thread earlier on.

 

The thing is that howlround is audio feedback. The singers voice through the PA coming back to their mic louder than their actual voice (at least at some frequencies) It'll then howl at those frequencies. If one singer has a louder voice or a better mic technique that'll make them immune to feedback in the same situation. There's a concept known as gain before feedback. Have a look at that article, I'll get back later.

 

[Al Krow]

21 minutes ago, Jack said:

If the gear is identical in the signal chain after the mic, then the issue is before the mic. Is one singer much louder? Better mic technique? More cogent of where the speakers are whilst they're on their walkabout? 

 

We've been trying to work out what they're doing differently - they're both (highly) trained and very experienced vocalists and it's not down to mic technique or awareness of speaker position. We've boiled it down to one having more powerful vocals which allows us to have a lower gain on the desk. 

[Pirellithecat]

Very interesting - quick question re. "gain at mixer" from a novice (me!).    Am I right in thinking  there might be 3 (4 including FX's?) controls which affect gain before the PA speaker.   
1) the incoming Mic sensitivity control, 
2) the channel fader control for the channel in question 
3) the Master (left/right) faders to the PA speakers 
So which of these would you see as being the main target for feedback control (if any?) or are they all equally important? 
I've been through the process of setting the mic sensitivity/gain on the mixer for each mic and then the channel outputs to give the appropriate LED responses on the mixer, so I guess ideally it's a question of the master fader in concert with the PA speaker volume control.   But I'm weak  .... and I can be found fumbling around (tweaking) the other knobs 🙄     

[Woodinblack]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The notch filter on the sax will really help and the positioning of the mic will affect resonances so spending time with your sax player away from the gig could be useful to get a consistent howl free sound.

 

Sadly (well, not too sadly) the sax is wireless, so he dances around with it like mad. It tends to not be when he is playing that it feeds back, it is when he is singing and holding the sax to the side.

 

 

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Poor mic technique from the singer is often the biggest problem. The PA and sound person is going to be blamed for that too, good luck with that  Holding the mic at the knobbly end destroys the directional nature of the mic

 

Irritatingly he has recently started doing that.

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Ha ha , my expertise is keeping things simple, there are a lot of people better qualified than me to do a feedback "bible". I think Russ maybe commented on the evil of compressors on this thread earlier on.

Also, easy on the echo/reverb and keep the EQ as flat as possible, remembering that boosting the EQ is the same as increasing the gain at selected frequencies.

[Downunderwonder]

On 27/02/2023 at 02:50, Woodinblack said:

when he is singing and holding the sax to the side.

Can you gate his sax mic so it only goes live when he plays it? I never got to use one so I only know of gating drums which is a bit of a different animal.

[Woodinblack]

9 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Can you gate his sax mic so it only goes live when he plays it? I never got to use one so I only know of gating drums which is a bit of a different animal.

 

Funny, the old guitarist asked if I could make a gate when he did play it

 

[Al Krow]

I managed to source a pair of new 732A Mk4s for our band at a reasonable price with the assitance of @Pirellithecat, so I owe him an A/B comparison of my 912A vs the 732A.

The 732A are about 40% dearer, but as @EBS_freak mentioned, the 3" horn provides a significant step up for vocals and mids over the 1" horn on the 912A in terms of articulation and power. If you can afford the extra then I think it's going to be well worth it. 

 

Link to a sound test comparison 912A vs 732A Mk4

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

Hey Al, how did you record that? There's so much more detail coming out of the 732's I'm surprised it's that obvious, did other songs show the same level of contrast? I've learned over the years not to judge on a single song. I've tuned up crossovers to make my test tracks sound good only to find that the 'improvements' didn't always transfer to other pieces of music. The bass sounded nice on the 912's which I think have a more rigid case than the 732's

Edited March 12, 2023 by Phil Starr

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Hey Al, how did you record that? There's so much more detail coming out of the 732's I'm surprised it's that obvious, did other songs show the same level of contrast? I've learned over the years not to judge on a single song. I've tuned up crossovers to make my test tracks sound good only to find that the 'improvements' didn't always transfer to other pieces of music. The bass sounded nice on the 912's which I think have a more rigid case than the 732's

 

It's interesting how obvious it is, right, even via a compressed Instagram upload?

In terms of recording: was my usual set up of Rode Stereo Mic --> Sony a6300 (with the internal camera recording levels cut to avoid distortion). The recording was done via my desk with all settings identical - I simply panned left or right.

I was particularly interested in how the speakers handled vocals and I think that particular song illustrates it very well. I only recorded that one song unfortunately and the 732A PA is now in the possession of our lead vox. We did use at a gig last night for, bass, keys and 2 vox. It was very good.

 

My conclusion from this past year (with some very helpful input indeed on this thread, thank you!) is that in terms of relatively compact PA set-ups, with no bass line or subs:

RCF310A (relatively budget) --> RCF 912A = big improvement in bass handling --> RCF 732A = further significant improvement in vocals / mids (but looking at double the price of the 310As)

[JohnDaBass]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

My conclusion from this past year (with some very helpful input indeed on this thread, thank you!) is that in terms of relatively compact PA set-ups, with no bass line or subs:

RCF310A (relatively budget) --> RCF 912A = big improvement in bass handling --> RCF 732A = further significant improvement in vocals / mids (but looking at double the price of the 310As)

Great job @Al Krow. Very informative and helpful conclusion. You have probably helped many on here save their time and expense with the journey you've published. 

Thanks!!

[EBS_freak]

On 11/03/2023 at 17:23, Al Krow said:

I managed to source a pair of new 732A Mk4s for our band at a reasonable price with the assitance of @Pirellithecat, so I owe him an A/B comparison of my 912A vs the 732A.

The 732A are about 40% dearer, but as @EBS_freak mentioned, the 3" horn provides a significant step up for vocals and mids over the 1" horn on the 912A in terms of articulation and power. If you can afford the extra then I think it's going to be well worth it. 

 

Link to a sound test comparison 912A vs 732A Mk4

 

 

Im saying nothing.