Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[jrixn1]

I think I'm missing some information: do you have monitors, and if so what do you put through them?

If you have bass amp as backline, guitar amp as backline, drums are not miked, only vocals in the monitors, and the PA (the two 710s) is just for vocals - then yes that's a standard setup for a smaller gig.

But you said to put the CMD in the sub position - how would you and your bandmates hear the bass?

 

And then this: "then for larger venues I can take along the CMD 121H for a bit of additional low end support" - I still think I've missed something, because this implies that for smaller venues, you're not taking along the CMD 121H.  So how are you hearing the bass here - just from being behind the 710s?
Sorry if I've missed something already mentioned!

[Al Krow]

We're heading down the IEM route for monitoring.

 

But even without IEMs or a bass combo, I've found it not too hard to hear bass through the tops when standing near one (even from behind).

 

Btw I very much take your point about best sound for the band etc. but I've come around to thinking it's also reasonable for bandmates who are primary users of a particular piece of gear to either own it outright or at least take some significant responsibility for it - so if the drummer is going to be the main user of the sub it seems fair enough for him to take it to gigs. Just as I wouldn't dream of asking another band mate to be responsible for any of my bass gear, even if there's an argument it's the audience that is the main beneficiary of that, too. And don't get me started about vocalists happy to turn up with just their mics and often asking someone else to bring a mic stand for them! 

[jrixn1]

Tell me about it - I used to be a drummer, and our bassist never brought a bass amp so we always had to bring one for him!  Can't believe I used to do that...

 

Sounds like 710A is the way to go for you.  They will be better than the 310A, which you used to own and know were ok for smaller gigs.  So you know the 710As will also be fine for smaller gigs.

 

If you think they'll need a boost, bring a 912A as well (rather than a CMD).  There is also redundancy here, as the 912A will substitute better than a CMD if a 710A broke.

 

For the larger gigs, bring both 912As.

👍

[Jack]

19 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

The QSC's are around £975 each vs £800 for the top of the range RCFs 932A (or a paltry, by comparison, £533 each for the RCF 912As I've got). Are the QSC's a significantly better product than the RCFs?

I own a pair of the K12.2 and our band pa was upgraded from 712 to 732. Our drummer owns the 712s (that we used to use as tops) and when we decided we needed more we bought the 732s as a band. I haven't used the 900 series. Assuming that they are roughly equivalent to the 700 series (but probably a little better) then I would say that the QSCs are meaningfully much better than the 912 and very slightly better than the 932, that's certainly the way they sit with the 712 and 732.

 

This is in response to @Pirellithecat asking about use as an FRFR cabinet for bass mind, where the deeper bass extension, dsp presets and better monitor position matter quite a lot. When we needed PA tops we replaced the 712 with the 732, all of the advantages of the QSC didn't matter for that application and the RCFs where cheaper, sounded just as good and matched our subs.

 

EDIT - Also I just checked and I paid £1348 for the pair including the (nicest I've seen) bags. So that's a little over £600 per QSC. Over 50% in 2 years price increase.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jack

[Al Krow]

On 22/02/2023 at 20:25, EBS_freak said:

It’s the middle digit in the RCF models that gets you the benefits! The more you can offload through the horn, the better.

 

Hmmm, there's quite a lot of hidden wisdom in that little post of yours! It's given me pause for thought and I've managed to dig out a fuller discussion from another older 2019 thread and key points from that seem to be as follows:

• Vocals really will sing with that 3"VC horn. 
• While the RCF 712A is not bad, it's really worth spending the extra to go to the larger HF driver in the 732. The extended response of the larger HF driver in the 732 brings the crossover frequency down from the 712's 1,600 Hz to 700 Hz, which makes it a peach for vocal reproduction.  Not to mention a 2dB increase in max SPL.

Our singer has confirmed she's ok with going for a 12" rather than a 10" speaker in terms of portability, and given that she'll also be using the PA for solo vocal work, it seems like the 732A is actually a better option than the 912A we've got, and which  can then become our #2 "spare" PA set-up. The relative quality of the two I guess is reflected in the price, with the 732A still being sold at a significant premium over the 912A.

Should allow us to dispense with the need for a bass rig to support the PA or additional sub for the kick drum and thereby simplifying our set up. A lot of boxes ticked.

Fingers crossed, this is going to be a treat! 

[Jack]

How many pairs of tops have you been through now Al?

[EBS_freak]

Somebody's got to keep the economy going!

[Al Krow]

31 minutes ago, Jack said:

How many pairs of tops have you been through now Al?

 

Currently just the one - a pair of 912As

This second set of 732AS will be kept by our lead vox

So if either of us are not around for a gig for whatever reason the band will still have a PA

 

We actually had two sets of PA tops previously - my old 310As and our former drummer's cheap and cheerful Proel V15As. You'll appreciate that that the 912A & 732As represent a considerable upgrade on what we previously had, and we also took the opportunity to upgrade our drummer a while back. But that's a whole 'nother story 😄

[Jack]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Currently just the one - a pair of 912As

This second set of 732AS will be kept by our lead vox

So if either of us are not around for a gig for whatever reason the band will still have a PA

 

We actually had two sets of PA tops previously - my old 310As and our former drummer's cheap and cheerful Proel V15As. You'll appreciate that that the 912A & 732As represent a considerable upgrade on what we previously had, and we also took the opportunity to upgrade our drummer a while back. But that's a whole 'nother story 😄

Don't knock the cheap and cheerful, my hard rock band is going on for 12 years with an Alto system!

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, Jack said:

Don't knock the cheap and cheerful, my hard rock band is going on for 12 years with an Alto system!

Says the owner of a pair of QSC K12.2s...😁

[Jack]

14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Says the owner of a pair of QSC K12.2s...😁

Well the news that they are now worth their weight in cocaine has come as a surprise. I suddenly feel very middle class, looking down on you plebs with your cheap gear.

 

On a serious note though I think you're squeezing a balloon trying to find the perfect set of tops, just buy a sub.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Jack

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, Jack said:

Well the news that they are now worth their weight in cocaine has come as a surprise. I feel very middle class, looking down on you plebs with your cheap gear.

 

On a serious note though I think you're squeezing a balloon trying to find the perfect set of tops, just buy a sub.

I sadly can't comment on your white lines as I'm from the Frank Zappa school when it comes to that sort of gear 😅

 

On your serious point, I'm not convinced that our previous combination of RCF 702ASii + 310A tops was better than the current 912As - if anything the 912As win relatively easily. And @EBS_freak has always been horny about the 3" VC on the 732As - and the penny's starting to (finally!) drop on that and the benefit of a 700Hz crossover point.

 

It's never been about perfection for us - you're talking to the guy whose function band were content with 310As for the best part of a decade; my Alto equivalent story haha! It's just about having something that's going to be good enough for our needs. But if the drummer now still wants to get a heavy/expensive sub and transport them to gigs, he's very welcome to...strangely I've a feeling he'll be fine not doing that!

 

I started this thread almost a year back thinking about getting a pair of 312As. I guess in terms of compactness I've not varied too much from that precept. But as for being "budget", well yeah, you guys have been very persuasive on getting something better than I'd planned, haha! But it's BC and this is the way.

[EBS_freak]

Buy once, buy right...

 

...oh.

[Paul S]

Just out of curiosity, Bas, what was it about my band's RCF EVOX 8 set up that didn't hit the mark? 

[Al Krow]

17 minutes ago, Paul S said:

Just out of curiosity, Bas, what was it about my band's RCF EVOX 8 set up that didn't hit the mark? 

 

I thought your EVOX 8 were going to be perfect for us - I loved how well they worked for your 3 piece! Would have avoided needing to go down the IEM route for stage monitoring, too. I got as far trying out some in a local store with a bandmate, but couldn't get passed the feedback we were getting in store and, given that was effectively my opp to demo the set-up to my sceptical bandmates who didn't believe there would be no feedback, the EVOX 8 ship sadly sailed on that morning...

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Jack said:

Don't knock the cheap and cheerful, my hard rock band is going on for 12 years with an Alto system!

 

Mine was going for 7 years with a pair of Alto 312s and then backed up by a behringer 12" sub when we were ouside. Now we have the RCF Evox 8 instead of one of them. Never had a problem with bass, always a problem with vocals.

[Paul S]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

I thought your EVOX 8 were going to be perfect for us - I loved how well they worked for your 3 piece! Would have avoided needing to go down the IEM route for stage monitoring, too. I got as far trying out some in a local store with a bandmate, but couldn't get passed the feedback we were getting in store and, given that was effectively my opp to demo the set-up to my sceptical bandmates who didn't believe there would be no feedback, the EVOX 8 ship sadly sailed on that morning...

 

Most places we plug and play - feedback just doesn't happen.  Just a couple of times we've found a room where the vocal mic or kick drum mic feeds back and then it is the same as with any other pa - find the mic that is the culprit (OK, we only have a choice of 3), then the frequency, then cut it until it stops.  I am probably the least technically minded of anyone in your acquaintence but even I can manage this    Still, probably too late now.  

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Mine was going for 7 years with a pair of Alto 312s and then backed up by a behringer 12" sub when we were ouside. Now we have the RCF Evox 8 instead of one of them. Never had a problem with bass, always a problem with vocals.

When you say a problem with vocals was that with your Altos? 

 

6 minutes ago, Paul S said:

 

Most places we plug and play - feedback just doesn't happen.  Just a couple of times we've found a room where the vocal mic or kick drum mic feeds back and then it is the same as with any other pa - find the mic that is the culprit (OK, we only have a choice of 3), then the frequency, then cut it until it stops.  I am probably the least technically minded of anyone in your acquaintence but even I can manage this    Still, probably too late now.  

 

I mean, I've not quite pushed the button, still shopping around for a decent price as I'm now waaaay over the budget I agreed with our singer, haha! But I'm guessing Russ would probably recommend me getting the 732As anyway given the 3" horns. 

[jrixn1]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I mean, I've not quite pushed the button, still shopping around for a decent price as I'm now waaaay over the budget

 

Why not use just the 912As for now, and in particular have the singer use them on her solo gigs and see how she gets on?  Perhaps after a few real world experiences everyone will have a better idea of what they need.  What is the hurry to rush out and buy more gear?  Just a few weeks ago you said of the 912As, "definitely the best PA set up I've had with any of the bands I've been in" - but a few internet posts later and they've been relegated to being the spares.  I'm not saying 732As aren't good (I've had one - they're great), but whatever you get, there will always be something better - you have to stop at some point!

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

 

Why not use just the 912As for now, and in particular have the singer use them on her solo gigs and see how she gets on?  Perhaps after a few real world experiences everyone will have a better idea of what they need.  What is the hurry to rush out and buy more gear?  Just a few weeks ago you said of the 912As, "definitely the best PA set up I've had with any of the bands I've been in" - but a few internet posts later and they've been relegated to being the spares.  I'm not saying 732As aren't good (I've had one - they're great), but whatever you get, there will always be something better - you have to stop at some point!

Because it means:

(i) she has a PA available for her solo work (she will be keeping / storing the 732As);

(ii) we have a spare rig when one of us unavailable;

(iii) I don't have to lug a PA to every gig ie transportation load will be shared with the other main user of the PA, now that I'm using it as my bass rig.

 

It's something we discussed and agreed a while back, and she's now sold her solo-work PA (which wasn't suitable for a full band) in anticipation. 

 

Don't worry, I won't be on to the "next thing" in any particular rush. I mean I was content with RCF 310As for the band for the best part of a decade...😄 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Al Krow
typos, typos, typos...

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

When you say a problem with vocals was that with your Altos? 

 

It was a big problem with the altos, it is still a problem but not as much. our singer is not very clear (I am clear enough and so is the drummer), and we are always getting complaints that we can't hear him or the sax. The Evox has made it a ton better but we still have problems, and just going louder goes to feedback, especially the sax, which is ok, I can mute that when he is not using it, but he uses it a lot.

Last gig I spent some time in practice putting gates on him and compressors and the last gig he was as clear as anything, but he wasn't keen that he had a harder time talking (due to the gates). Its a work in progress.

I wish we had another evox 8, but haven't got the money for that and they have all gone up.

 

 

[Phil Starr]

3 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Last gig I spent some time in practice putting gates on him and compressors

That may be your problem. Compressors pretty much always cause feedback issues. I just wouldn't use them with a live band unless I was working just as FOH mixing. Even then I'd only use them rarely on vocals if at all. They are really something for studio use.  Guitarists use them to increase sustain which is itself the result of a feedback loop where the sound from the amp makes the strings vibrate sustaining the sound.

 

 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

That may be your problem. Compressors pretty much always cause feedback issues. I just wouldn't use them with a live band unless I was working just as FOH mixing.

these were my changes to get rid of feedback, which largely worked. Probably more the noise gates.

And also just put a notch on the sax at the feedback frequency that helped a lot

[Chienmortbb]

Warning possible flame war!
 

I have to admit I have never used a Tea Chest Bass PA but as someone that watches both singers and bands any Saturday that I am not gigging, I am not too impressed. I should say at this point that I have not heard the EVO 8. I know the theory and it in practice it works to a point. 

The pros are, as I see it,

 

• Smaller, lighter gear
• Improved dispersal/ audience coverage
• Reduces feedback
• Reduced need for stage monitors

The cons?

 

• Price, there is a price premium for stick on a box. 
• There is a it suck in the response at some point and I have heard the various Bose, Yamaha and LD Systems units.

I believe that in order to achieve the desired weight and size criteria, the crossover point is often too high. The reason is that the drivers in the “stick” are too small.

 

The best system I have heard for a band in reasonable size is the one below.

 

http://blue-acoustic.com/2023-g1-series/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Chienmortbb

[Woodinblack]

For me the evox has been pretty transformational.

It is heavy, much heavier than the altos, but not too surprising, it is in a wooden box and has poles etc, whereas the Alto is a plastic box that is just one speaker and a little horn thing.

However, the additional clarity (and volume) it has given to the sound has been great - I realise at this point I am not comparing like for like, but I am not able, or willing to just go out and buy the latest expensive things, and also I am the one that stores them and they are pushing the room I have.

I have my doubts about the size of the treble drivers and the frequencies they do, but I am happy with my (second hand and < £500) purchase.

I don't care about monitoring - I bought the PA, I bring and setup the PA, I use in-ears to listen, it sounds great to me, the drummer also uses in ears. The old guitarist occasionaly complained he couldn't hear much to which I told him many times he was welcome to either get in ears or buy himself a monitor, there is an output ready for it, but it is not something I need, want to buy or store, so of course nothing happened. The singer used to have a monitor which broke and was never replaced. He seems happy enough with the evox. The new guitarist was surprised at the lack of monitor, but said he had no problem at our first gig.