Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Al Krow]

8 hours ago, Ralf1e said:

I have been reading this thread through and have what to me is an obvious  question. Has no manufacturer out there yet thought to put just one backward facing speaker into those array enclosures to provide economical foldback to the band while the system sits Foh?

If not it's about time someone did.

 

Check out the Bergantino HG312. Apparently Jim knows a thing or two about cab design!

 

[EBS_freak]

29 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Check out the Bergantino HG312. Apparently Jim knows a thing or two about cab design!

 

“The rear firing 12” speaker provides a sonically charged heavyweight blanket of bass that has to be experienced first-hand.“

 

the very thing you don’t want on stage muddying up your on stage sound!

 

 

[Al Krow]

19 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

“The rear firing 12” speaker provides a sonically charged heavyweight blanket of bass that has to be experienced first-hand.“

 

the very thing you don’t want on stage muddying up your on stage sound!

 

 

But bands use backline speakers all the time, which will be "muddying" the on stage sound? 

 

I could see this working really well as a FoH bass speaker and the rear facing cab provding a dedicated bass monitor. Could be neat! 

[Ralf1e]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But bands use backline speakers all the time, which will be "muddying" the on stage sound? 

 

I could see this working really well as a FoH bass speaker and the rear facing cab provding a dedicated bass monitor. Could be neat! 

The concept I was trying to describe is the upright array like the rcf units but with an extra small speaker in the tower facing backwards as a monitor. It would need adjustment for volume to provide foldback to the band not a thunderous row. 12" never came to mind I was thinking more like the 3,4 or 5" or whatever they are.

Hope that makes my thinking clearer.

[EBS_freak]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But bands use backline speakers all the time, which will be "muddying" the on stage sound? 

Correct.

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Correct.

Sometimes. Poor sub placement causes real problems FOH and in my experience is far worse than "single point" sources such as a bass rig. For example, the common practice of a sub per side, creates alternating aisles of overpowering lows and absence of lows depending on where you are in the venue.

 

I agree that getting monitors off the stage will help in all sorts of ways though.

 

I must admit that I am trying like crazy to get my band to accept the use of a digital mixer to improve the on-stage monitoring. Whether that be good monitor speakers or IEMs, but it is a slow process.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Chienmortbb

[Greg Edwards69]

11 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But bands use backline speakers all the time, which will be "muddying" the on stage sound? 

 

I could see this working really well as a FoH bass speaker and the rear facing cab providing a dedicated bass monitor. Could be neat! 

True, but backline speakers aren't generally pointed at the vocal mic. Well, not unless you bring an 8x10 to the dog'n'duck.

 

I do like the idea of a line array pointing back at the band however. They're generally less prone to feedback and since low frequencies are omnidirectional, you don't need full range pointing back at you. But you still run the risk of the vocal mic's picking them up unless speakers and mics are very carefully placed.  TBH the Mackie/Behringer mini monitor designs work just as well for this purpose. Our drummer uses one in preference to IEM and still keeps the stage volume down because he can have it much closer to him than a side fill.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Greg Edwards69

[Al Krow]

44 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

True, but backline speakers aren't generally pointed at the vocal mic. Well, not unless you bring an 8x10 to the dog'n'duck.

 

I do like the idea of a line array pointing back at the band however. They're generally less prone to feedback and since low frequencies are omnidirectional, you don't need full range pointing back at you. But you still run the risk of the vocal mic's picking them up unless speakers and mics are very carefully placed.  TBH the Mackie/Behringer mini monitor designs work just as well for this purpose. Our drummer uses one in preference to IEM and still keeps the stage volume down because he can have it much closer to him than a side fill.

 

I guess the nice thing about the Bergantino design was that rear facing back speaker is low down and also not pointing at the vocal mics - not dissimilar to stage monitors in that sense, although it lacks the ability to independently control the rear facing volume which a stage monitor gives and that would be s a big disadvantage. The market clearly didn't take too kindly to them as I think the HG series may have already been discontinued.

 

Appreciate IEMs would be another solution - but not all musos seem to like using IEMs. Certainly true of the drummer in one of my bands, so the Behringer mini monitor might be a nice solution for him and I know some bass players miss the "feel" of bass when there's no backline.

 

So I guess the other obvious approach for bass monitoring would be a little backline bass combo for stage bass and let the PA speakers do the heavy lifting for FoH. 

[Ralf1e]

29 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

I guess the nice thing about the Bergantino design was that rear facing back speaker is low down and also not pointing at the vocal mics - not dissimilar to stage monitors in that sense, although it lacks the ability to independently control the rear facing volume which a stage monitor gives and that would be s a big disadvantage. The market clearly didn't take too kindly to them as I think the HG series may have already been discontinued.

 

Appreciate IEMs would be another solution - but not all musos seem to like using IEMs. Certainly true of the drummer in one of my bands, so the Behringer mini monitor might be a nice solution for him and I know some bass players miss the "feel" of bass when there's no backline.

 

So I guess the other obvious approach for bass monitoring would be a little backline bass combo for stage bass and let the PA speakers do the heavy lifting for FoH. 

My experience is that a little backline bass combo disappears under the onslaught of two drummers (rock kit and congers) and 6 to 8 powerfull singers who shout.

Also that is all going through 3 retired 1400 watt powered tops being used as monitors. 

All of which reinforces your argument to get rid of stage monitors in favour of an alternative and saving everyone from going deaf.

[EBS_freak]

Let me summarise the way of getting positive outcomes -

 

1. PA does all the heavy lifting

2. Onstage volume as low as possible or even better... silent stage. All this reduces the chance of feedback and unwanted bleed into mics

3. Yes, I know all your favourite artists use big amps on stage... but they also tend to play on big stages, reducing the bleed. 2 in a pub (for example... or difficult venue (highly reflective surfaces)) is a winning move.

4. IEMs can be used in the pub as well as stadiums. Arguably they will be more useful in a pub for creating a better sound that is easier to mix out front... and easier for yourself to hear at a safer volume.

5. If you are using monitors, make sure they are pointing up at you from the floor (or roof mounted (as in some venues) pointing down). Depending upon the mic pickup pattern, either behind the mic of off to the sides of the read of the mic.

 

Regarding 2 and 3... Springsteen knows best -

 

 

His backline is big - but so is his stage - so separation between volume sources and mics are maximised - leading to a greater reduction in chance of feedback. The amps and cabs are running enough to get whatever tone guitarists tend to be precious of. They are still miced up and the PA is providing the volume for FoH. The cabs are completely off axis to the mics in the fact that they are pointing straight up - greatly minimising bleed.

 

Oh and 6. If your drummer is a noisy f**k, your band may sound better for them using an elec kit. (OK tonally may not sound as good... but a decent mix is superior to overly powerful drums in the mix with a load of cymbal bleed going into the open mics). If not, drum screen/booth of shame (although practically of moving this can be prohibitive. Just get the noisy buggers to shut up a bit (they won't... they may for sound check... but they'll always do the equivalent of the guitarist turning around and turning up (e.g. hitting harder) anyway)

Edited September 7, 2022 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

Oh I'd love our drummer to have an electric kit. He might even get some practice done at home then, haha! But I think he was born shortly before the Neanderthals were invented...

 

Tbf all the drummers I work with are good at dialling the volume down e.g. by using rods instead of sticks, when it's appropriate for them to do so.

[Greg Edwards69]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I guess the nice thing about the Bergantino design was that rear facing back speaker is low down and also not pointing at the vocal mics - not dissimilar to stage monitors in that sense, although it lacks the ability to independently control the rear facing volume which a stage monitor gives and that would be s a big disadvantage. The market clearly didn't take too kindly to them as I think the HG series may have already been discontinued.

I would assume the advantage of the rear facing bass speaker in that cab is for wall/corner interaction. We already know that putting a bass cab near a wall can increase perceived low end. I guess making the speaker face the wall increase this even more.  Otherwise, I guess it could be useful for the drummer to hear, if your cab is a bit forward of the drums.

 

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Appreciate IEMs would be another solution - but not all musos seem to like using IEMs. Certainly true of the drummer in one of my bands, so the Behringer mini monitor might be a nice solution for him and I know some bass players miss the "feel" of bass when there's no backline.

We haven't really got our IEM system up to snuff. We've only got a cheap wireless Gear4music branded one.  It's fine for vocals, and guitars, but get a mushy when the bass kicks in which disappears in the mix. It's simply because it's a cheap system with a cheap compander. One of the guitarists has an inexpensive Behringer P2 wired IEM adapter. Much, much better sound. We're considering getting a few of these and headphone distributer for those of us at the back of the stage and let the two lead singers use the wireless system out front.  The drummer would definitely be okay using a wired IEM.

 

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

So I guess the other obvious approach for bass monitoring would be a little backline bass combo for stage bass and let the PA speakers do the heavy lifting for FoH. 

Like my band, without a sub, I think it's the easiest solution. Even if I use a higher quality IEM and ditch the on stage guitar frfr speakers, I would be reluctant to forgo a bass speaker on stage. As we've established earlier in this thread, in lieu of a sub, I feel it helps fill out the low end lost by putting the FOH speaker up on poles.

 

With a sub, and without IEM, a small combo pointed at you could work as well.  In a small venue such as a pub, having a gobs of subbass low end filling up the stage can cause all sorts of issue, and as I say, the low end from the PA is omnidirectional, so you only need to hear the mids and top end.

 

FWIW, I use a hpf in my helix to ensure I have enough low frequencies to help the sub-less FOH speakers, but not so much that it floods the stage with uncontrollable boomy mud.

[Downunderwonder]

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But bands use backline speakers all the time, which will be "muddying" the on stage sound? 

 

I could see this working really well as a FoH bass speaker and the rear facing cab provding a dedicated bass monitor. Could be neat! 

This thread has strayed all over the spectrum.

 

My happy place is pub venues where the PA is vocal only with a splash of high passed kick to add defintion and everyone stays under the vocals. 

 

When I was in a rowdy jazz combo and backlined the PA it was so easy. Subwoofer and a PA cab separated by crossover. Boom. I had to highpass myself a bit higher to avoid mud from the kick. All good.

 

What was the OP about again?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Downunderwonder

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I would assume the advantage of the rear facing bass speaker in that cab is for wall/corner interaction. We already know that putting a bass cab near a wall can increase perceived low end. I guess making the speaker face the wall increase this even more.  Otherwise, I guess it could be useful for the drummer to hear, if your cab is a bit forward of the drums.

 

I did think on the logic behind the Berg rear facing speaker was to employ a cardioid setup - to make the bass more directional (e.g. out of phase at the back to send more bass forward)

 

This works for FoH subs because it's in front of the mics on the stage. Not sure how successful it would be on stage. Maybe it would help reduce bleed into the kick mic... and of course, it would reduce bass bouncing off the walls (especially the back wall).

 

Maybe I should look at the link and see what the reasoning is. I'm pretty sure it won't be for monitoring purposes though!

Edited September 7, 2022 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

Oh... just reread -

 

The rear firing 12” speaker provides a sonically charged heavyweight blanket of bass that has to be experienced first-hand. If you are a gigging bassist looking for a true “one cab solution”

 

Heavyweight blanket of bass on stage? Yeah. No.

[BigRedX]

For a lot of smaller venues there is a conflict between having the bass sound that you want on stage and being able to hear yourself and the other instruments clearly enough to know that what you're playing is in tune and in time with the rest of the band.

 

I learnt a long time ago (in the 90s) that I'd far rather be able to hear the notes I am playing rather than a powerful bass sound on stage and trust that the FoH was delivering the right sound to the audience. IME if you need it to be loud and/or bass heavy on stage in order to "feel the vibe" there is something wrong with the songwriting or the arrangements of the songs themselves.

 

My less conventional band has just done our second gig with no backline at all, just relying on the foldback to be able to hear ourselves, and it was probably the best playing and sounding gig we have done since the end of lockdown. It might have been a little lacking in bottom end on stage, but we could hear everything clearly which certainly meant that I played better and it sounded as though the rest of the band felt that way too. The FoH sound must have been pretty decent because there were people up and dancing from the first song, and this is for a weird post-punk/goth band playing our own compositions.

[Jack]

9 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Like my band, without a sub, I think it's the easiest solution. Even if I use a higher quality IEM and ditch the on stage guitar frfr speakers, I would be reluctant to forgo a bass speaker on stage. As we've established earlier in this thread, in lieu of a sub, I feel it helps fill out the low end lost by putting the FOH speaker up on poles.

 

With a sub, and without IEM, a small combo pointed at you could work as well.  In a small venue such as a pub, having a gobs of subbass low end filling up the stage can cause all sorts of issue, and as I say, the low end from the PA is omnidirectional, so you only need to hear the mids and top end.

I think that you know this but just for the benefit of anyone reading: the problem with low end on stage, power alley and comb filtering etc isn't to do necessarily with a subwoofer, it's just having low end in the pa. If you have a top that goes all the way down you're still going to have the same problem. 

[Chienmortbb]

15 hours ago, Jack said:

I think that you know this but just for the benefit of anyone reading: the problem with low end on stage, power alley and comb filtering etc isn't to do necessarily with a subwoofer, it's just having low end in the pa. If you have a top that goes all the way down you're still going to have the same problem. 

Good point Jack and better top speakers might be worse in that respect.

[Greg Edwards69]

On 07/09/2022 at 23:17, Jack said:

I think that you know this but just for the benefit of anyone reading: the problem with low end on stage, power alley and comb filtering etc isn't to do necessarily with a subwoofer, it's just having low end in the pa. If you have a top that goes all the way down you're still going to have the same problem. 

I must admit I didn't know that, and didn't think of it like that, but it does make an awful lot of sense. If I understand you correctly, having low end in the PA and on stage results in a clash of frequency mess.  So it's better to favour one or the other.   However, my original comment was thinking that having tons of sub-bass frequencies on the stage can cause all sorts of problems, such as reverberating a hollow stage and bleeding into the vocal mic (particularly if you have a basic desk without hpf's on the mic channels).

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I must admit I didn't know that, and didn't think of it like that, but it does make an awful lot of sense. If I understand you correctly, having low end in the PA and on stage results in a clash of frequency mess.  So it's better to favour one or the other.   However, my original comment was thinking that having tons of sub-bass frequencies on the stage can cause all sorts of problems, such as reverberating a hollow stage and bleeding into the vocal mic (particularly if you have a basic desk without hpf's on the mic channels).

Just a note on HPFs - they tend to be deployed far too often with an aggressive cut that impacts the quality of FoH. You are better EQing your monitors to cut the sub - you still want the lower frequencies out front (to a certain extent) - cos otherwise youll find everything starts to become quite harsh.  

[Greg Edwards69]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Just a note on HPFs - they tend to be deployed far too often with an aggressive cut that impacts the quality of FoH. You are better EQing your monitors to cut the sub - you still want the lower frequencies out front (to a certain extent) - cos otherwise youll find everything starts to become quite harsh.  

Fair play.  We engage the mixing desk's 100hz hpf on each vocal mic and the two guitars. The bass and bass drum are left full range. Seems to work well, sounds clean and clear without harshness, and prevents the low end feedback we had previously been plagued with.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Fair play.  We engage the mixing desk's 100hz hpf on each vocal mic and the two guitars. The bass and bass drum are left full range. Seems to work well, sounds clean and clear without harshness, and prevents the low end feedback we had previously been plagued with.

Hey if it sounds good, it's good.

[Chienmortbb]

4 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Fair play.  We engage the mixing desk's 100hz hpf on each vocal mic and the two guitars. The bass and bass drum are left full range. Seems to work well, sounds clean and clear without harshness, and prevents the low end feedback we had previously been plagued with.

Our fronts don't go down that low, but I use two HPFs each with -12dB per octave with -3dB at 50Hz, if there is a problem on my bass rig and always cut at 75Hz on vocal channels.

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Hey if it sounds good, it's good.

Yes, one of the best pub sounds I ever heard was from a blues band called Chicago 9. Only vocals though the PA and even the blues harp had its own amp. Broke all the rules, but they had the sound spot on. Two passive EV tops for the vocals, and they were golden.

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Yes, one of the best pub sounds I ever heard was from a blues band called Chicago 9. Only vocals though the PA and even the blues harp had its own amp. Broke all the rules, but they had the sound spot on. Two passive EV tops for the vocals, and they were golden.

Knowing to get the best out of your gear is sometimes better than having the best gear. Of course, having a band that plays for the audience counts for everything. There's too many drummers that will start playing too loud, guitarists will turn up volume throughout the night, keys players will start stepping into the domain of the bass... and singers that don't sound check at the volume they actually sing at.

 

Of course, bass players are always golden.