Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Chienmortbb]

8 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Knowing to get the best out of your gear is sometimes better than having the best gear. Of course, having a band that plays for the audience counts for everything. There's too many drummers that will start playing too loud, guitarists will turn up volume throughout the night, keys players will start stepping into the domain of the bass... and singers that don't sound check at the volume they actually sing at.

 

Of course, bass players are always golden.

Funnily enough I have been using a new setup recently and although it sounded loud enough to me,  I was asked to turn up as I was quiet our front. 

[EBS_freak]

23 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Funnily enough I have been using a new setup recently and although it sounded loud enough to me,  I was asked to turn up as I was quiet our front. 

Ah - bass player in the audience!

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Ah - bass player in the audience!

Of course, I went out into the audience and voilà, he was right. I could barely be heard. I don't like to be overpowering, but I do like to be heard. When I am not gigging on a Saturday, I am often at my local Legion and of course have a good idea of what it sounds like, the bass can overpower unless it is lower than in most venues, it is reverberant at about 60Hz.  I always tell the bassist to cut the bass, but do they listen? Anyone would think they were guitarists. The result is that bands almost always sound bass heavy. No wonder many places turn to professional karaoke singers instead of bands.

[Al Krow]

Well, they've arrived!

 

Personally, I think the look of the new 9 series RCFs is an improvement on the older series with the addition of a front grille. They're also not outrageously heavy, although will obviously be more of a challenge getting onto poles than the 310As have been. Speaking of which, I gigged through the 310As on Saturday night, with a 4-piece rock band with no backline, and the bass was just fine in the mix. Can't believe it took me years to get our drummer to give this set-up a go in the first place! Now my bands just accept me turning up with my bass and going through the PA and no back-line without batting an eyelid.

 

I'll give the 912As a spin at home tomorrow and obviously the real test is going to be in a band mix, but I'm expecting / hoping that they're going to be a decent step in sound for the band. Looking forward to it! 

 

[Al Krow]

Have quickly put the 912As through their paces at home with a 5 string, to make sure everything is in working order. Comfortably handles the low B string with an authority that my old 310As couldn't manage and the addition of 3 settings, "linear", "boost" and "stage" is a nice touch. I'm going to be tempted to have this on default (bass) "boost", haha, and not let on to my bandmates. I suspect that would give a decent kick drum & bass without needing to add a sub.

 

I think these are going to be great and not require any backline support - will be able to confirm for sure when I've gigged them at decent size venue; we've got a couple of larger ones coming up at the end of the year.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 09:03, Pirellithecat said:

The 710's are great because of their size and sound quality.    Especially in terms of transporting them.   However, if I were to replace them, I'd probably go for an RCF 12" model as, having used the  710's a lot (2-3 times per week for the last 12months), I don't think a larger size would actually get in the way at smaller venues.  In an ideal world I'd also add a sub for bigger venues as it doesn't really take up space if used instead of a speaker stand.   But please, if it all works out, don't post how good it all sounds on here - I'm teetering and need NO encouragement to invest yet more £££ on gear!!!  (although we do need a new monitor or 2 ......  and RCF 710's would work ................) 

 

You mentioned that the 710As weren't a standalone "bass cab". I'd be pretty happy using one of the 912As as a bass combo in a way I wouldn't dream of doing with a solitary 310A. Apologies if that's not helping! 

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks for the update Al ........ I guess stealth is the way to go ....... "if you really want to put your Kick Drum through the PA Mr Drummer, we're going to need a bigger/better PA"   moving to "now we have such a good PA perhaps I could put my bass through it" and finally, "yes Mr Guitard, I realise that you can't hear me, how would you feel about IEM's".   OK ... I was dreaming!     Good luck Al, I'm already looking  ( ..... at RCF 912/932's and an IMF loan!).  Do let us know how you get on!  

[EBS_freak]

What an interesting turn of events @Al Kroweh?

[Al Krow]

24 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

What an interesting turn of events @Al Kroweh?

 

I know, right? What's your money going on next? 😄 

[EBS_freak]

A set of UE6s. Then a set of A12t.

[Al Krow]

38 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

A set of UE6s. Then a set of A12t.

 

I think a decent compact mixing desk will need to come first!

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

Thanks for the update Al ........ I guess stealth is the way to go ....... "if you really want to put your Kick Drum through the PA Mr Drummer, we're going to need a bigger/better PA"   moving to "now we have such a good PA perhaps I could put my bass through it" and finally, "yes Mr Guitard, I realise that you can't hear me, how would you feel about IEM's".   OK ... I was dreaming!     Good luck Al, I'm already looking  ( ..... at RCF 912/932's and an IMF loan!).  Do let us know how you get on!  

 

You'll only need an IMF loan if you decide to go for the 932As rather than the 912A. But given you've been using 710As when we've been content with more lowly 310A (Mk2s)... 😄

[Pirellithecat]

But surely .... a set of 932's now will cost the same as a set of 912's in a few months' time if inflation and the £ continue their current trends .........  well that's the argument to the Mrs ..............!!  (I see a veto coming!).  Good luck and please let us know if this confirms that a sub is unnecessary!🙂 

[Al Krow]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:47, Pirellithecat said:

But surely .... a set of 932's now will cost the same as a set of 912's in a few months' time if inflation and the £ continue their current trends .........  well that's the argument to the Mrs ..............!!  (I see a veto coming!).  Good luck and please let us know if this confirms that a sub is unnecessary!🙂 

 

Taken me a while to use the 912As I bought towards the end of last year, in anger. I've been cheekily making use of other band members' PAs to save me having to lug the load...but they had their first outing last night at a busy decent sized pub and it was definitely the best PA set up I've had with any of the bands I've been in (not on a par with @bassfan's but there's a lot more to their set up in terms of amount of kit involved). Handled 5 string bass really well and good sound upfront. Not going to help with me trying to get away with not using these on future gigs though!

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Not going to help with me trying to get away with not using these on future gigs though!

Always the way, I had one glorious year using someone else's PA until I accidentally let slip that I'd picked up a few bits and pieces  Glad it went well

[Al Krow]

On 15/01/2023 at 20:58, Phil Starr said:

Always the way, I had one glorious year using someone else's PA until I accidentally let slip that I'd picked up a few bits and pieces  Glad it went well

 

I've managed to persuade a fellow band member to get a second band PA so we can share the transport load, which is good news, and having a spare band PA if either of us is not around will be a bonus too. We're looking at getting a pair of RCF 710A Mk4s which seem to have got pretty good rep. and are a bit more compact and a little less spendy than the 912As I've got.

 

In terms of handling bass through these, what are folks views experiences with:

a) using them as standalone to put bass through;

b) combining with a small bass rig e.g. a Markbass CMD121 combo; or

c) combining with a sub;

 

Is it pretty common to consider (b) and (c) as workable alternatives? Are there particular benefits to one over the other?

[Pirellithecat]

Hi Al, 

I have RCF710 Mk4's which are really good - get lots of positive feedback on their sound.   We're using them as monitors tomorrow evening - I'll try my bass through them (alone) before we kick off to see how they perform at "gig" level volumes and get back to you.    From previous experience I'm not optimistic though, especially with a 5 string.    

[Al Krow]

23 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Hi Al, 

I have RCF710 Mk4's which are really good - get lots of positive feedback on their sound.   We're using them as monitors tomorrow evening - I'll try my bass through them (alone) before we kick off to see how they perform at "gig" level volumes and get back to you.    From previous experience I'm not optimistic though, especially with a 5 string.    

 

How did you get on [...baited breath...]?

[Pirellithecat]

Just back home after gig.   Another "blàst" but not helpful on the 710's, as we ended up using the venues PA and only one 710 as monitor.  But, I'll assemble the full PA tomorrow and try it out for you.  I also have rehearsal on Wednesday and will add the bass into mix of vocals/guitar/kick to see how it copes.  Sorry to keep you waiting!

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Just back home after gig.   Another "blàst" but not helpful on the 710's, as we ended up using the venues PA and only one 710 as monitor.  But, I'll assemble the full PA tomorrow and try it out for you.  I also have rehearsal on Wednesday and will add the bass into mix of vocals/guitar/kick to see how it copes.  Sorry to keep you waiting!

 

No worries - thanks for testing these out for me, and look forward to getting your thoughts

 

The RCF 912As performed really well at a wedding function gig we had tonight. I used them for the first time with my other band that already have a PA (my old 310As) and comment from the drummer was that he felt that the 912As "were a massive step up" - he's got a good knowledge of sound engineering, so that was a big compliment coming from him. He also appreciated that they represented a good trade off in portability vs having a sub. I didn't use any backline and had one audience member coming up to me and asking what bass I was playing as it "sounded great". I should have said the sound he was hearing was coming from the RCF 912As. Instead I said it was an Elrick 😊

 

I've got a simple workaround for the 710As if they don't handle bass  brilliantly by themselves, which is simply to combine with a bass combo for larger venues. I'm sure for smaller venues they'll be fine, just as the 310As have been decently adequate in handling bass (a little phone clip to illustrate - recommend using headphones) in a full rock band setting, albeit without being amazing. Occurs to me that's maybe reversing the accepted orthodoxy of using the PA to support bass-backline by, instead, using bass-backline (when required) to support the PA!

Edited February 19, 2023 by Al Krow

[Pirellithecat]

Interim Update.......... for the Instant Gratification folks .... 

I've set up the RCF Art710's alongside a Studiomaster Sense +12 inch Monitor for comparison.  I've taken a DI from my Genzler Magellan.   

The sound produced by the  E string isn't great - it's quite dead , almost muffled. (Sandberg VM4, Roundwound D'addario NXYL's) strings)  As the frequency increases above 440Hz the sound is pretty good with more harmonic information. 

Volume wise it might be OK for quiet gigs, but I wouldn't use it "alone" for a live gig, except to reinforce the backline.  I tried using  a sub-octaver to get an idea of what a B string might do and I feel that a B string might be a bridge too far in terms of sound quality. 

The Studiomaster has a nicer bass response in so far as it sounds fuller and with more harmonic info.    However, it breaks up rather quickly - OK as a bedroom noodling practice amp though.  (or indeed a monitor)  

 

I'll try again with the band and mixer etc. on Wednesday, but I suspect I wouldn't be happy using the 710's in a live situation to carry all the bass sound reproduction.  Maybe with a sub, but I'm not sure the Crossover point would be appropriate.  And that's with a 4 string. 
I'd also be concerned about what effect it might have on the sound of the rest of the mix, but I am rather conservative in this regard.   It strikes me that there are really 2 elements to this.  One is the innate quality of the sound of  bass guitar via the 710's and the other is whether they can deliver sufficient volume and maintain this quality.  I certainly wouldn't be happy with either.

Maybe in a quiet band ........... ?   But even then, and even if the audience doesn't care about the quality of the bass-sound,  it would distract me o end! 

 

More to follow.......... 

 

 

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Interim Update.......... for the Instant Gratification folks .... 

I've set up the RCF Art710's alongside a Studiomaster Sense +12 inch Monitor for comparison.  I've taken a DI from my Genzler Magellan.   

The sound produced by the  E string isn't great - it's quite dead , almost muffled. (Sandberg VM4, Roundwound D'addario NXYL's) strings)  As the frequency increases above 440Hz the sound is pretty good with more harmonic information. 

Volume wise it might be OK for quiet gigs, but I wouldn't use it "alone" for a live gig, except to reinforce the backline.  I tried using  a sub-octaver to get an idea of what a B string might do and I feel that a B string might be a bridge too far in terms of sound quality. 

The Studiomaster has a nicer bass response in so far as it sounds fuller and with more harmonic info.    However, it breaks up rather quickly - OK as a bedroom noodling practice amp though.  (or indeed a monitor)  

 

I'll try again with the band and mixer etc. on Wednesday, but I suspect I wouldn't be happy using the 710's in a live situation to carry all the bass sound reproduction.  Maybe with a sub, but I'm not sure the Crossover point would be appropriate.  And that's with a 4 string. 
I'd also be concerned about what effect it might have on the sound of the rest of the mix, but I am rather conservative in this regard.   It strikes me that there are really 2 elements to this.  One is the innate quality of the sound of  bass guitar via the 710's and the other is whether they can deliver sufficient volume and maintain this quality.  I certainly wouldn't be happy with either.

Maybe in a quiet band ........... ?   But even then, and even if the audience doesn't care about the quality of the bass-sound,  it would distract me o end! 

 

More to follow.......... 

Both interesting and helpful. Be interested to get your "unvarnished" thoughts on how well the bass was coming through on that little clip I included in my previous post?

[Pirellithecat]

OK - Headphones donned and had a proper listen.  The bass sounds tidy and clean and I can hear the notes being played.  Can't hear much in the trouser flapping frequencies (and who can tell from a phone clip) which might be as intended.  Great vocals (and nice bass playing of course!) and everything well controlled and civilised.👍    Makes the band I'm in sound like a war zone! 🙄   
I would expect the 710's to be better than the 310's so maybe they'll work well for you. 

 

I have the opposite issue, which is that my 710's are great but probably not sufficient to deal with more than the 3 vocal mics, at the volume we tend to deliver.   We have a fantastic female singer and  to do her justice (and be able to add other stuff to the mix) it would be great to get the Art 932's (plus a sub) and stick the Kick Drum/ Snare through them too when necessary.  The chances of getting the guitars through the PA with quiet(er) backline are low .... but I'm working on it.  I could still fit all this in my car, the sub only really occupies the space of the speaker stand at the venue so stage space would be OK and I would probably reduce my cabs from 2 to a single unit  (and get PA support where necessary.)  Expensive hobby this music malarkey!

[Jack]

I'm all for the smallificiation of gear but there are plenty of people on here who would look at a 2x10" cab and balk that it wouldn't be enough for them as backline. Asking the same amount of speaker (even if they're better drivers supplemented with with horns) to produce the whole band for the whole crowd is expecting a lot from not that much.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Jack

[Al Krow]

34 minutes ago, Jack said:

I'm all for the smallificiation of gear but there are plenty of people on here who would look at a 2x10" cab and balk that it wouldn't be enough for them as backline. Asking the same amount of speaker (even if they're better drivers supplemented with with horns) to produce the whole band for the whole crowd is expecting a lot from not that much.

 

I take your point @Jack, but my reading of the amps and cabs thread over recent years is that many folk are very happy with a 1x12" or 2x10" cab as backline. Obviously having a decent quality cab with the ability to handle reasonably chunky wattage helps, but I never found my Vanderkley 210s or my BF BB2 or SC 1x12" lacking, or having to ever really push my MB AC 121Lite 12" 500W combo to anything much above 5 or 6 /10.

 

It will obviously also depend on venue size and how loud the rest of your band are, but I can only recall one request to play louder (plenty to turn it down, haha!) for as long as I've been gigging and that was in quite a large (long) venue and interestingly using a bandmates 2x12 PA but which was more budget / far less capable and articulate than the RCFs 310As one of my bands have been using. The 310As certainly won't produce the trouser flapping, though, that @Pirellithecat mentioned above which you'd get with the addition of a sub, or that the 912As I've recently got can deliver.

[Pirellithecat]

I'm increasingly unsure about the rights and wrongs of all this.   
I spend 90% of my time playing bass using headphones, usually with a backing track of the music I'm practicing/playing along to.   All works fine and can hear myself and the backing band!  I guess that 2 x 2 inch speakers - even less if I use in Ear Monitors.   
During gigs,  we often put a music feed through the PA during breaks - full band loud enough for people to dance along to if they feel the urge.   
And then we get up and play with a huge acreage of speaker cones.   
I suspect a lot of this is down to competing with loud drummers but I also believe that there are "traditional" beliefs that lead to lots of unnecessary/wasted volume.   
Why is it virtually impossible to get guitar players to get their cabs off the floor?   
Why do guitar players, listening to their heroes perform on u-Tube on their PC's or smart speakers, insist that the guitar just won't make a good noise through the PA ('cos it's not a guitar cab!!). 
Why do I need two huge speaker cabs which are played with a hugely powerful amp (at <20% of it's output) - except to get the top cab nearer to my ears so that I can hear myself?   Another band playing similar material in the same venues use a 10" Markbass cab for the bassist and I can hear him! 
However, if   we do find a way to control the volume so that everything can be heard and the dynamics are sufficient to whip the audience into a dancing frenzy, it'll be even more important (and worthwhile) to ensure that the bass sounds great.    
At which point I'd go back to my suspicion that, in the long term, 2 x RCF 710's may not do justice to Al's bass playing, (and investment made in gear)!!  😏😄