Vintage Fenders

[Owen]

Clive Brown's name pops up now and again. He is clearly revered. Very little info out there. 

[Mrbigstuff]

11 hours ago, dodgnofski said:

Would be a bit of a boat anchor for me, plus still a bit pricey for a refin with the infill - in my humble opinion of course.

It sounds nice though. I do like the demos AB has on his site.

[Reggaebass]

Despite not being able to do any deals with AB for the last few years ,he does know how to advertise his basses with all the pictures and the demos 

[snorkie635]

12 hours ago, Owen said:

Clive Brown's name pops up now and again. He is clearly revered. Very little info out there. 

Could only find these photos of his parents.

 

 

[danbanbass]

7 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

Despite not being able to do any deals with AB for the last few years ,he does know how to advertise his basses with all the pictures and the demos 

I have noticed his prices creep up and go down on certain items, the black Gibson Ripper was £2395 yesterday and £2595 today.

[Burns-bass]

2 minutes ago, danbanbass said:

I have noticed his prices creep up and go down on certain items, the black Gibson Ripper was £2395 yesterday and £2595 today.

 

That's strange. Must be a commission sale and the seller wants £2,000 for it.

[Chiliwailer]

20 hours ago, Owen said:

Clive Brown's name pops up now and again. He is clearly revered. Very little info out there. 

Yep, the ‘very little info out there’ really suits him IMO. I don’t know him well at all, but I’ve had enough direct and indirect contact to know he comes across as a really lovely man, super passionate about guitars, and is a guitar encyclopaedia as well as master restorer (best not ever use the word refinish around him 😬). 
 

All the top dealers know him, and he’s always appeared to have tons of work so has no need to advertise I guess, building Dwight guitars, doing custom work, or restoring. 
 

I imagine he must be winding down at some point as I guess him to be at that age, but then again from chatting to him I can easily imagine him working as long as he can. 
 

edit - one thing I found odd though was although he mostly puts little secret signs that he restored (refinished) a guitar (that most dealers know of), he once told me that some guitars don’t have that if it’s been requested. Make your own mind up…

Edited yesterday at 17:27 by Chiliwailer

[Burns-bass]

54 minutes ago, Chiliwailer said:

Yep, the ‘very little info out there’ really suits him IMO. I don’t know him well at all, but I’ve had enough direct and indirect contact to know he comes across as a really lovely man, super passionate about guitars, and is a guitar encyclopaedia as well as master restorer (best not ever use the word refinish around him 😬). 
 

All the top dealers know him, and he’s always appeared to have tons of work so has no need to advertise I guess, building Dwight guitars, doing custom work, or restoring. 
 

I imagine he must be winding down at some point as I guess him to be at that age, but then again from chatting to him I can easily imagine him working as long as he can. 
 

edit - one thing I found odd though was although he mostly puts little secret signs that he restored (refinished) a guitar (that most dealers know of), he once told me that some guitars don’t have that if it’s been requested. Make your own mind up…

They do look super good!

[GuyR]

3 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

Yep, the ‘very little info out there’ really suits him IMO. I don’t know him well at all, but I’ve had enough direct and indirect contact to know he comes across as a really lovely man, super passionate about guitars, and is a guitar encyclopaedia as well as master restorer (best not ever use the word refinish around him 😬). 
 

All the top dealers know him, and he’s always appeared to have tons of work so has no need to advertise I guess, building Dwight guitars, doing custom work, or restoring. 
 

I imagine he must be winding down at some point as I guess him to be at that age, but then again from chatting to him I can easily imagine him working as long as he can. 
 

edit - one thing I found odd though was although he mostly puts little secret signs that he restored (refinished) a guitar (that most dealers know of), he once told me that some guitars don’t have that if it’s been requested. Make your own mind up…

 

I tried a CAR 65 Strat that Clive Brown had restored and examined it closely.
 

The finish was convincing. In particular, the parallel line checking that seems more prevalent in CAR than any other vintage Fender finish was replicated perfectly. It was indistinguishable from my own examples, both of which have sufficient provenance for me to be confident as original finish.

I would have had no hesitation in accepting it as original had it been so described.

 

Any example of his work without the “tells” would only need to pass through the hands of one miscreant to be established in the canon of the bona fide. I wonder how many times that has happened- I hope he’s never worked for the Harrisons.

 

 

 

[Chiliwailer]

7 hours ago, GuyR said:

 

I tried a CAR 65 Strat that Clive Brown had restored and examined it closely.
 

The finish was convincing. In particular, the parallel line checking that seems more prevalent in CAR than any other vintage Fender finish was replicated perfectly. It was indistinguishable from my own examples, both of which have sufficient provenance for me to be confident as original finish.

I would have had no hesitation in accepting it as original had it been so described.

 

Any example of his work without the “tells” would only need to pass through the hands of one miscreant to be established in the canon of the bona fide. I wonder how many times that has happened- I hope he’s never worked for the Harrisons.

 

 

 

You hit the nail on the head regarding my edit. 
 

Yes, he was affiliated with the Harrisons. I worked for them  but left when their illegal activities became clearer and I literally had evidence in my hand  - this was years before their conviction (and when I left I went from managing a shop I helped set up for them to being unemployed, it was a 100% moral decision for me). 
 

But then it’s hard for Clive not to be affiliated with them in his position, the vintage guitar world is a small one. And despite Rick Harrison’s obvious criminal flaws, he was a very charismatic man that people were drawn to, and of course he had his good points too. 
 

I was in the trade from 1993-2010, starting aged 15 at Andy’s in Denmark St, so I was in the vintage world for some time - I say this because I have no doubts there are authenticated frauds out there, from vintage gear down to a small amount of faked custom shop instruments and their certificates. 
 

IIRC correctly, but don’t quote me on this, Clive may even have authenticated a Gibson that later turned out to be a fraud. I’m not saying that he or other dealer’s authenticate incorrectly on purpose as I know of some very cunning foxes out there, but some sure as hell have. 

[ossyrocks]

9 hours ago, GuyR said:

 

I tried a CAR 65 Strat that Clive Brown had restored and examined it closely.
 

The finish was convincing. In particular, the parallel line checking that seems more prevalent in CAR than any other vintage Fender finish was replicated perfectly. It was indistinguishable from my own examples, both of which have sufficient provenance for me to be confident as original finish.

I would have had no hesitation in accepting it as original had it been so described.

 

Any example of his work without the “tells” would only need to pass through the hands of one miscreant to be established in the canon of the bona fide. I wonder how many times that has happened- I hope he’s never worked for the Harrisons.

 

 

 

I've been told a former employee that he did a LOT of work for the Harrisons.

Edited 13 hours ago by ossyrocks

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, ossyrocks said:

I've been told a former employee that he did a LOT of work for the Harrisons.

We should avoid damming someone by association, of course (especially when potentially libellous), but it’s yet more reason to question everything on a vintage guitar. 
 

(I’m not suggesting you’re libelling anyone, just don’t want BC problems if tim ha get personal.)

Edited 11 hours ago by Burns-bass

[Hellzero]

3 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

You hit the nail on the head regarding my edit. 
 

Yes, he was affiliated with the Harrisons. I worked for them  but left when their illegal activities became clearer and I literally had evidence in my hand  - this was years before their conviction (and when I left I went from managing a shop I helped set up for them to being unemployed, it was a 100% moral decision for me). 
 

But then it’s hard for Clive not to be affiliated with them in his position, the vintage guitar world is a small one. And despite Rick Harrison’s obvious criminal flaws, he was a very charismatic man that people were drawn to, and of course he had his good points too. 
 

I was in the trade from 1993-2010, starting aged 15 at Andy’s in Denmark St, so I was in the vintage world for some time - I say this because I have no doubts there are authenticated frauds out there, from vintage gear down to a small amount of faked custom shop instruments and their certificates. 
 

IIRC correctly, but don’t quote me on this, Clive may even have authenticated a Gibson that later turned out to be a fraud. I’m not saying that he or other dealer’s authenticate incorrectly on purpose as I know of some very cunning foxes out there, but some sure as hell have. 

There are other well known ones who have authenticated fake ones, and not only once, but they almost always threatened me when I pointed it out...

 

It just means you always have to be very careful when buying vintage or Custom Shop instruments and certainly not take retailers for granted, but ask for advice here as there are a some real experts and the power of BassChat is quite amazing when it comes to helping each others.

[Burns-bass]

11 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

There are other well known ones who have authenticated fake ones, and not only once, but they almost always threatened me when I pointed it out...

 

It just means you always have to be very careful when buying vintage or Custom Shop instruments and certainly not take retailers for granted, but ask for advice here as there are a some real experts and the power of BassChat is quite amazing when it comes to helping each others.

Agreed. 

[wateroftyne]

…and others are continuing the practice to this day. 
 

I’ve heard / seen some eye-opening stuff recently, but unfortunately nothing I’m comfortable sharing at the moment.

[Chiliwailer]

16 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

…and others are continuing the practice to this day. 
 

I’ve heard / seen some eye-opening stuff recently, but unfortunately nothing I’m comfortable sharing at the moment.

You’re right to be careful if it’s some particular people I’m thinking of. I don’t mind mentioning the Harrisons as their conviction is all over Google, but even still I wouldn’t mention it if it was the other people I’m thinking of if/when also convicted. 
 

I was told that the Serbian gangsters involved in the Harrisons conviction offered to ‘sort me out’ when I was involved in a legal thing with them  (that ended up costing them quite a few quid) but thankfully Rick quickly said no according to a colleague who was there. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Chiliwailer

[Belka]

I've heard of worse things than counterfeit guitars/amps from people in the trade about the Harrisons, but it's all anecdotal and you have to wonder how reliable these people are themselves. At the same time, I'm guessing that most Serbian gangsters would want more from a working relationship than a percentage of the proceeds of a stolen guitar, so perhaps there's something to it.

[GuyR]

When you look at the Denmark St Guitars website, the multitude of authentic blackguards, original custom colour and prototype Strats, genuine paisleys and completely legitimate celebrity owned guitars leads you to only one conclusion.

 

One can only be in awe of their ability to consistently track down and secure for sale such a stellar and market-leading selection.

Edited 8 hours ago by GuyR

[Chiliwailer]

27 minutes ago, Belka said:

I've heard of worse things than counterfeit guitars/amps from people in the trade about the Harrisons, but it's all anecdotal and you have to wonder how reliable these people are themselves. At the same time, I'm guessing that most Serbian gangsters would want more from a working relationship than a percentage of the proceeds of a stolen guitar, so perhaps there's something to it.

I’d be surprised if it was any more than money laundering with the Serbs (I.e. not sex/drugs etc. I’d hope). 
There is a deeper story regarding the ‘Italian Heist’ that got them convicted floating around, but I’m not sharing it, so I’ll just say it was nothing more sinister than money related. But again, there are so many stories floating around about people in the trade you’re right that it’s hard to know what to believe.  

Edited 8 hours ago by Chiliwailer

[Stub Mandrel]

It puts me right off buying a vintage instrument. 

[GuyR]

12 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It puts me right off buying a vintage instrument. 

Lack of a sound provenance back to 1990 or thereabouts puts me off buying a vintage instrument.

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, GuyR said:

Lack of a sound provenance back to 1990 or thereabouts puts me off buying a vintage instrument.

 

The high quality of modern instruments puts me off buying a vintage instrument.