EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[SubsonicSimpleton]

9 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Oh Great. So people are now giving advice to others which includes breaking the laws of our own country and others whilst they're at it. 

Taking back control... 

Pretty sure a musician here, working with no work visa would, if discovered, be arrested, detained uncomfortably before being blacklisted and deported. Never mind the trouble that the promoter and the venue would incur for employing an illegal immigrant.  

And playing a gig which might give some human beings some joy and uplift them from the day to day reality of their lives is a horrific crime?

Depending on where you live in the UK, you'll have a different perspective but in urban west yorkshire the authorities are unable/unwilling to enforce the law with respect to a veritable cornucopia of criminal and unlawful behaviour which degrades the quality of daily life for everyone except maybe the individuals commiting the crime. Meanwhile city hedge fund managers and large corporations willfully avoid billions of taxes every year while joe public gets to enjoy watching all their essential public services being cut to the bone.

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

with a VERY strong factor being that in order to remain in the EU, staying in the UK was the best choice.

That was also very well documented and the 62% vote pro-remain illustrates that.

While this is pure anecdote and without statistical value, I've come across many people who voted no to independence who now feel otherwise, and not a single one the other way. The way that Scotland is portrayed down South does not help matters either. 

You want democracy? Me too. It's not a democracy when lies are used to achieve political goals, and when those lies are uncovered nobody gets punished for that.

Ah come on, let's not start making up history. At the time of IndeyRef1 who knew that the UK, as a whole, would vote to leave the EU two years later? There were no lies told on that score. The facts on the ground subsequently changed. And tbf that is arguably good grounds for IndeyRef2. 

Scotland will get another IndeyRef for sure, and probably keep having them until the people of Scotland deliver the "correct" answer - or will the next one be the deciding one which folk will agree to abide by for a generation? 

But don't assume if Scotland leaves the most successful, and 300 year old, union of any nations, the EU will then welcome Scotland back with open arms. Small issue of Catalonia means that the Spanish veto will be critical. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[RedVee]

This issue only affects a small minority of UK citizens,although it will cost them there is nothing really anyone can do to change it. Some you win ,some you lose!

[Woodwind]

1 hour ago, ambient said:

, but it’s still there, an If they see that you’re carrying musical equipment and a bundle of cassettes, CDs and vinyl, then put 2+2 together, you risk I guess being refused entry.

Happened to an acquaintance of mine coming from Japan.

doing some "holiday" gigs in the uk.

Immigration queried the 20 identical records with his name on the cover in his bag.

The excuse of presents for friends wasn't allowed so If he wanted to be admitted through customs he was told he had to ditch them right there!

[Lozz196]

A band I know travelled to the US undercover for a gig, but made the mistake of having set lists on them. Don’t know what line they spun but they got in and managed to do the gig as well.

[peteb]

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Frankly there is no need for us to put these visa requirements and costs on overseas musicians coming to the UK.

FWIW the US has much higher barriers to entry and it has not killed its music scene there or more relevantly the music scene in Canada (unless I am mistaken about the latter). The relationship between Canada and the US is, in fact, a very good proxy for the relationship between the UK and EU, although we are significantly bigger economically, relatively speaking and also in absolute terms, than Canada is to the US. 

It's not as though I'm hearing cries of "oh great this will mean more work for British musicians". 

If you feel strongly about this, then be political! Write to your MPs and, as a musician, ask them why they are introducing this or ask them to challenge the government on this if they are an opposition MP. A letter received is considered to represent the views of a thousand constituents. 

@ambient @peteb - you chaps travel abroad to play a lot (something I have never done, I'm just a London and SE local performer). Why not put your heads together and draft a pro-forma letter that other folk can cut and paste? Maybe musicians unions are already on the case?

The truth may be more subtle than we realise eg this is being set up so that it can be bargained away in return for the EU not doing the same. Who knows. But great if UK musicians made it clear that they don't need their manor protected in this way. 

No point shouting at the tide not to come in. Much better to build a flood barrier. 

PS just seen @DoubleOhStephan's post above which seems to have landed on exactly the same conclusion. 

What you say makes perfect sense and therefore has no chance of happening in Brexit Britain! Of course, the MU is on the case and has been lobbying hard and we have all signed numerous letters and petitions. A Govt spokesman made a statement that they were aware of the situation and would looking out for musicians’ interests in negotiations to allow them to carry on working in the EU in a similar way to how they do now. This was flatly contradicted by the official govt guidelines issued a week later and then came the announcement about European musicians needing a Tier 5 visa in order to perform in the U.K.

Just to be clear, although I have played all over the UK, I am not a pro. I have a full time day job (although that is likely to change soon) and whenever I have had the opportunity to gig in Europe, unfortunately I have been unable to do it. However, I do have many friends who are pros and for whom playing in Europe makes up a significant part of their income.

Of course, this is not just about independent pro musicians being able to play in Europe. The FoM issue is going to bite every individual contractor or small business in the high tech / creative industries as well and there will be similar problems for academia and the science / research areas. It isn’t a case of adapting to a new reality, they will either limit their ambitions or just go out of business. And this isn’t even looking at the effect on the wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, peteb said:

 It isn’t a case of adapting to a new reality, they will either limit their ambitions or just go out of business. And this isn’t even looking at the effect on the wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…

Soz, back to glass half full mode! The answer is what Maude outlined in his earlier post. Ok he describes this as "simplistic" but he does himself down -  it's a well recognised economic concept of import substitution.

3 hours ago, Maude said:

So EU bands won't come to the UK to play and UK bands won't go to the EU to play, so the UK bands can take the EU bands gigs in the UK, and EU bands can take the UK bands gigs in the EU, everyone keeps gigging and there's a lot less travel involved which is great for the environment.

Yes that's a very simplistic view but we all seem to focusing on the gigs we'll lose rather than the new ones that will be up for grabs. 

Neither Nissan (nor the Project Fear brigade) wanted this leaking, but in the event of WTO terms trade deal at the end of the year they have a Plan B: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit (I'll try to limit my sources to left-of-centre rags otherwise it will be dismissed as propaganda. But it's not 😁).

For me that's a classic example of import substitution and nimble behaviour when seeing an opportunity to grow their business. As you say, the alternative is limiting ambitions and / or going out of business.

I have to agree with @ambient though, as musicians, we're at risk of being culturally poorer, although tbf I can't think of too many EU bands (well actually any) I would prefer to spend my time going to see over UK and US bands - but I appreciate that's just my taste in rock music.

[ambient]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Soz, back to glass half full mode! The answer is what Maude outlined in his earlier post. Ok he describes this as "simplistic" but he does himself down -  it's a well recognised economic concept of import substitution.

Neither Nissan (nor the Project Fear brigade) wanted this leaking, but in the event of WTO terms trade deal at the end of the year they have a Plan B: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit (I'll try to limit my sources to left-of-centre rags otherwise it will be dismissed as propaganda. But it's not 😁).

For me that's a classic example of import substitution and nimble behaviour when seeing an opportunity to grow their business. As you say, the alternative is limiting ambitions and / or going out of business.

I have to agree with @ambient though, as musicians, we're at risk of being culturally poorer, although tbf I can't think of too many EU bands (well actually any) I would prefer to spend my time going to see over UK and US bands - but I appreciate that's just my taste in rock music.

Nissan dismissed that as being incorrect. It’s off topic too, risking the thread from being locked. 

[Al Krow]

Just now, ambient said:

Nissan dismissed that as being incorrect. It’s off topic too, risking the thread from being locked. 

Haha they would wouldn't they - it goes against everything they were previously saying?

But come on let's be balanced - it's just an example of import substitution;  but seriously if you're not happy / worried with the broader point being made then you need first seek to shut down the post I was responding to which raised a valid concern about the "wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…" 

Why only challenge the half of the discussion that you disagree with? 

[ambient]

15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha they would wouldn't they - it goes against everything they were previously saying?

But come on let's be balanced - it's just an example of import substitution;  but seriously if you're not happy / worried with the broader point being made then you need first seek to shut down the post I was responding to which raised a valid concern about the "wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…" 

Why only challenge the half of the discussion that you disagree with? 

It was one of a lot of possible outcomes they considered, depending on what the final relationship is. It was one they dismissed though. If as seems likely there’s holdups on the border, then they’ll likely leave anyway. Sunderland has already lost the new X-trail. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/business/business-news/nissan-xtrail-japan-sunderland-plant-15773643

I'm personally not too bothered about them, they voted how they voted. My concern is the creative sector, which is where I work, that’s where my PhD research lies. 

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, ambient said:

My concern is the creative sector, which is where I work, that’s where my PhD research lies. 

What's your PhD on? 

[ambient]

Just now, Al Krow said:

What's your PhD on? 

Music, composition.

[peteb]

49 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Soz, back to glass half full mode! The answer is what Maude outlined in his earlier post. Ok he describes this as "simplistic" but he does himself down -  it's a well recognised economic concept of import substitution.

Forget about 'glass half full', let's be realistic. What Maude outlined would mean pretty much the death of the small time professional musician in the UK. Frankly, you can't make money touring in the UK, whereas you still can on the mainland! 

As far as Nissan goes, they will try to protect their £4bn investment in the UK, but as soon as that is no longer feasible they will drop Sunderland like a hot potato. Only yesterday another major employer announced that they are pulling out of a northern town that voted heavily for Leave to relocate in the EU. A lot of people are going to get a very nasty wake up call in the next 5 years or so. Perhaps then we will see a more realistic approach from the government to our relationship with the rest of Europe. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by peteb

[Marvin]

I'm not convinced by the substitution argument regards UK bands would get the gigs not being done by EU bands. That's not really how the industry works. You get booked by promoters who think they're going to make a profit from your gig...so ergo you get booked where your fanbase is. That being the case, UK bands will already have been booked.

To some extent this will apply to individuals as well, they're hired for who they are and what they bring. 

[Woodwind]

17 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I'm not convinced by the substitution argument regards UK bands would get the gigs not being done by EU bands. That's not really how the industry works. You get booked by promoters who think they're going to make a profit from your gig...so ergo you get booked where your fanbase is. That being the case, UK bands will already have been booked.

To some extent this will apply to individuals as well, they're hired for who they are and what they bring. 

I was trying to express this same point albeit far less concisely and elegantly.

The events I play at in the UK are because of the music I make.

I'm not losing gigs to EU bands, rather events happen that I am booked to play at in the UK sometimes because an EU act is coming over.

 

I've been encouraging a few of the promoters and venues I work with to pay to get the license to be a sponsor for EU acts.

These are tiny venues or operations and the outlay for a a Visa License will be a serious concern,  but having non UK acts coming is a way to curate a whole season of shows.

 

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But don't assume if Scotland leaves the most successful, and 300 year old, union of any nations, the EU will then welcome Scotland back with open arms. Small issue of Catalonia means that the Spanish veto will be critical. 

I assume by most successful union of nations you mean the US? 

And the Spanish have already said they would welcome Scotland in, as long as there is a valid referendum result permitted under UK law, which meant everything was legit (unlike Catalonia). 

[Woodinblack]

I know a couple of artists that tour Europe, but they are not big name acts and tend to play small venues around (often staying at peoples houses over there). I am pretty sure that neither of them do it for the money.

[Al Krow]

31 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I assume by most successful union of nations you mean the US? 

Well actually I didn't, although the US hasn't done too badly I have to agree!

But I wasn't aware of it being a union of separate nations? A union of states but not a union of countries (ie nations). And they did have the small incident of an internal spat in 1861, which resulted in 600,000+ deaths. We've not really had anything comparable in the last couple of hundred years between the nations of the UK. 

They've led the planet in pop and rock though. And have a pretty brutal visa regime for In-bound musicans...

[peteb]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Well actually I didn't, although the US hasn't done too badly I have to agree!

But I wasn't aware of it being a union of separate nations? A union of states but not a union of countries (ie nations). And they did have the small incident of an internal spat in 1861, which resulted in 600,000+ deaths. We've not really had anything comparable in the last couple of hundred years between the nations of the UK. 

They've led the planet in pop and rock though. And have a pretty brutal visa regime for In-bound musicans...

We may not have anything comparable between the nations of the UK, but we certainly have in Europe - estimates of total deaths ranging from 70 million to 85 million in WW2 and even more in the 'Great' WW1. Pretty much the reason for the EU's existence.

Let's not forget that that more recently there were another 140,000 plus deaths in the Yugoslav Wars - an example of a war in Europe arising from historical conflicts between nations that were outside of the influence of the EU. Never again... 

[Woodinblack]

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Well actually I didn't, although the US hasn't done too badly I have to agree!

But I wasn't aware of it being a union of separate nations? A union of states but not a union of countries (ie nations).

what's the difference? If you live there you will find out they are much closer to our idea of countries. The GDP of California is ahead of the UK for instance, let alone our individual countries.

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

And they did have the small incident of an internal spat in 1861, which resulted in 600,000+ deaths. We've not really had anything comparable in the last couple of hundred years between the nations of the UK. 

no, but unlike the US, we have lost a state, they haven't

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

They've led the planet in pop and rock though. And have a pretty brutal visa regime for In-bound musicans...

They do, probably like the EU with us in it, a bit more comparable than us alone

[Cuzzie]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

They've led the planet in pop and rock though. 

I wouldn’t say they have led the planet in pop and rock, this is the nation that didn’t recognise the talent of Jimi Hendrix, he had to be discovered by a geordie brought over to England and then released back to them before they realised what they had.

I think Britain has done ok in those genres and probably has the biggest bands/artists overall of all time

[Pseudonym]

20 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Out of interest, do you require a work permit to work in the US? 

I did when I first arrived, but it was rolled into my visa category anyway. The process towards permanent residence and naturalisation was gruelling then, and I gather it is even more demanding these days. Could have bought a Porsche for what it cost me. Worth every penny, as things turned out.

[ambient]

20 hours ago, RedVee said:

This issue only affects a small minority of UK citizens,although it will cost them there is nothing really anyone can do to change it. Some you win ,some you lose!

The creative industry employees some half a million people, that’s as many as the construction industry. It brings £110 billion into the economy. In contrast, fishing employs 11,000 full-time people, and delivers £1 billion to the economy. Which industry is being listened to, which ignored? 
 

It also has wider implications. Without going off topic, I’m a musician it’ll affect me travelling to perform in whatever guise. I’m also an academic, my PhD is practical based. Academia relies heavily on travelling and meeting people, especially so where the two fields meet.

Edited February 23, 2020 by ambient

[ambient]

5 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

I did when I first arrived, but it was rolled into my visa category anyway. The process towards permanent residence and naturalisation was gruelling then, and I gather it is even more demanding these days. Could have bought a Porsche for what it cost me. Worth every penny, as things turned out.

A friend I was at uni with moved there last year. His wife is American which helped, but he still had to overcome massive hurdles. 

[DoubleOhStephan]

58 minutes ago, ambient said:

Which industry is being listened to, which ignored? 

Probably because the issue over fishing territory has been ongoing for decades and people have been campaigning to challenge the EU rules for as many years. 

This work visa issue has only come to light in the past few days. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by DoubleOhStephan