Ear Plugs Don’t Work

[wateroftyne]

5 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

He was talking about how humans hear and that it’s a misconception that sound is just detected via the ear canal. As far as I’m concerned he is shouting about it, maybe people don’t want to listen?

 

I only heard about it through you.

If he has proof that 99.9% of us - including other hearing experts, it would seem - are being mislead, with the possible consequence of widespread hearing damage, surely this is massive news, and he should be doing what he can to shake up the whole industry..?

[DoubleOhStephan]

Some info re. Bone conduction effecting hearing loss 

https://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/hearing-loss-through-bone-conduction-522

Question

If a patient wears earmuffs in combination with custom made earplugs, can you still get hearing loss through bone conduction (through the skull) when shooting a variety of guns? What is the rate of attenuation from external noise to the cochlea through bone conduction?

Answer

 

The limits to the attenuation for a perfectly attenuating hearing protector, that are imposed by the flanking bone-conduction pathways, vary from about 40 - 60 dB across frequency. This means that even if a hearing protector could block all of the sound entering the earcanal, that sound attenuated by 40 to 60 dB would still get though to the cochlea, and like the sound transmitted via the air-conduction pathway, this energy can cause hearing loss. However, in all but the most extreme environments, this will be sufficient protection. For all but the most susceptible ears and all but the most extreme amounts of gunfire, noise reduction that equals the attenuation imposed by the bone-conduction limits should be quite sufficient. The much larger issue is making sure that the shooter is properly wearing the single or double hearing protection devices to get the maximum protection they can provide.

[DoubleOhStephan]

Bit more info on this. It seems, in summary, that bone conduction becomes an issue if the ear canal is blocked as it causes a build up of pressure. However, this is only considered a problem for vocalists and musicians who play instruments that are in contact with the face 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr664.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiY86ekierjAhXSNcAKHaxIAxMQFjALegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3giRGZP-86CEkE9PP3bxQ3&cshid=1564951379371

[Dankology]

I'd be asking about what possible commercial interests might be at play in the formulation of this man's opinion.

[la bam]

6 hours ago, Billy Apple said:

I was talking to a specialist audiologist Doctor last week and he says ear plugs don’t work.

The guy obviously has no real life experience of being on stage.

[mcnach]

7 hours ago, la bam said:

The guy obviously has no real life experience of being on stage.

 

I rather suspect a disconnect between what was said, what was meant, and what was received.

[DoubleOhStephan]

35 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

I rather suspect a disconnect between what was said, what was meant, and what was received.

For sure. As the Doctor is working with orchestras and the studies have shown wearing ear plugs causes a problem with musicians playing wind instruments, it's a real and demonstrable problem. Not one that would effect string or percussionists though it seems, unless at extreme volumes. 

Certainly something to be aware of. 

[stingrayPete1977]

15 hours ago, Billy Apple said:

I was talking to a specialist audiologist Doctor last week and he says ear plugs don’t work......

[Rich]

15 hours ago, 4000 said:

Does this scheme apply to semi-pro too? I certainly haven’t earned the bulk of my income from playing. 😉

 

15 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

It worked for me 🙂

Really? Blimey, I clicked on the 'join here' thingy and when I got to the bit that said "We will ask you for your contact details and some evidence to show that you are a professional musician" I figured that was that. Perhaps it's worth a punt after all!

EDIT: have applied. Feck it. Nothing ventured, etc.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Rich

[TimR]

13 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Some info re. Bone conduction effecting hearing loss 

https://www.audiologyonline.com/ask-the-experts/hearing-loss-through-bone-conduction-522

Question

If a patient wears earmuffs in combination with custom made earplugs, can you still get hearing loss through bone conduction (through the skull) when shooting a variety of guns? What is the rate of attenuation from external noise to the cochlea through bone conduction?

Answer

 

The limits to the attenuation for a perfectly attenuating hearing protector, that are imposed by the flanking bone-conduction pathways, vary from about 40 - 60 dB across frequency. This means that even if a hearing protector could block all of the sound entering the earcanal, that sound attenuated by 40 to 60 dB would still get though to the cochlea, and like the sound transmitted via the air-conduction pathway, this energy can cause hearing loss. However, in all but the most extreme environments, this will be sufficient protection. For all but the most susceptible ears and all but the most extreme amounts of gunfire, noise reduction that equals the attenuation imposed by the bone-conduction limits should be quite sufficient. The much larger issue is making sure that the shooter is properly wearing the single or double hearing protection devices to get the maximum protection they can provide.

Thanks. 

So earplugs could only reduce sound levels by 40-60db. Most of us are wearing 15-20db plugs for an hour and a half tops and I’d be surprised if we were even approaching 110db on stage so plugs are perfectly adequate.

Construction, factories and Orchestras and other professional environments are different. You’re exposed to loud volumes for up to 8 hours a day at much higher levels. If you’ve ever been in a steel pressing plant you can feel the floor move when walking past the presses. I’m guessing you’d be deaf after 5 minutes without protection. 

The plant-room doors we have at work have ear defender signs on them, not ear plug signs and that’s because the sound level has been measured as being potentially above 85db with defenders on at the ear. 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/hearingprotection.htm

Edited August 5, 2019 by TimR

[EBS_freak]

14 hours ago, Billy Apple said:

 As far as I’m concerned he is shouting about it, maybe people don’t want to listen?

 

Maybe if they took their earplugs out, they'd be able to hear him shout..?

[EBS_freak]

There is some truth in saying that ear plugs don't work.... just like when you wear sunglasses and look directly at the sun. If you are standing in 140dB, then your -15dB plugs aren't going to do you that much good.

I think that it's about being sensible with the volumes. Wearing earplugs is better than not wearing earplugs. Wearing IEMs is better than earplugs (especially in terms of sound reproduction... the claims that earplugs don't mess with the frequency response is nonsense... they do). - as long as you aren't blasting them at horrendous volumes.

[EBS_freak]

15 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

he should be doing what he can to shake up the whole industry..?

Turn up the subs. That should add a bit of low end wobble...

[Krysbass]

I began using ear plugs (just inexpensive  off the shelf ones) in 2008 when I was in a band with a drummer who hit the heads so hard that he put dents in them and broke so many sticks that the scattered debris at the end of a rehearsal resembled the floor of a sawmill.  He was so loud that without earplugs it literally hurt and I could feel the insides of my ears rattle like an overpowered loudspeaker about to disintegrate. 

But although he was unnecessarily loud, he did me a favour, because I've religiously used ear plugs for all rehearsals and gigs since then.

Thankfully my hearing is still pretty good.

[fretmeister]

Perhaps the OP should go back to the same doc and ask him if he is advocating not wearing ear plugs at all.

 

I will bet a shiny £1 that the answer will not be "do without - it will all be fine"

[Billy Apple]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

Perhaps the OP should go back to the same doc and ask him if he is advocating not wearing ear plugs at all.

You're missing the point. We think ear plugs protect us, but there is a source of sound that they don't protect against and ear defenders do.

Perhaps ACS etc are not giving us the full story, and seeing as I'm a customer of theirs, it would be nice to know.

[fretmeister]

4 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

You're missing the point. We think ear plugs protect us, but there is a source of sound that they don't protect against and ear defenders do.

Perhaps ACS etc are not giving us the full story, and seeing as I'm a customer of theirs, it would be nice to know.

That's a very different explanation to your click-bait "Ear plugs don't work" thread title.

 

It's also very different to your opening sentence of the thread: "I was talking to a specialist audiologist Doctor last week and he says ear plugs don’t work."

 

That is a definitive declaration. It is not an "ear plugs don't help as much as we think" or "Ear plugs only help for some sound levels but not all because of bone transmission." You claimed that an expert told you they "don't work."

 

If a point has been missed that is due to your inaccurate title and opening post. Considering how important hearing is to musicians the last thing this topic needs is sensationalism.

[Billy Apple]

1 minute ago, fretmeister said:

It's also very different to your opening sentence of the thread: "I was talking to a specialist audiologist Doctor last week and he says ear plugs don’t work."

That's exactly what he said. You are still at risk from hearing damage.

3 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

If a point has been missed that is due to your inaccurate title and opening post. Considering how important hearing is to musicians the last thing this topic needs is sensationalism.

No, my title and OP is accurate from the information given to me by someone qualified on the subject. But, hey-ho the non-qualified Basschat experts know better.

Or are you a Doctor (or anyone here?)

[TimR]

15 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

Perhaps ACS etc are not giving us the full story, and seeing as I'm a customer of theirs, it would be nice to know.

They tell you that they’ll reduce by 15-20db. That is the full story. 

If you need more than that to come down to a safe level you need ear defenders. 

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, Billy Apple said:

That's exactly what he said. You are still at risk from hearing damage.

No, my title and OP is accurate from the information given to me by someone qualified on the subject. But, hey-ho the non-qualified Basschat experts know better.

Or are you a Doctor (or anyone here?)

If they assist then they work. If they reduce the damage done to the ear they work.

They might not work as well as expected but they work.

 

This is not semantics. Crash helmets work. Up until the point where the impact means that the person would be killed whether they were wearing the helmet or not. Thus they still work even though the person is still at risk from head injury.

 

No neurosurgeon would ever be so unprofessional as to to claim a helmet didn't work.

 

 

[wateroftyne]

 

6 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

No, my title and OP is accurate from the information given to me by someone qualified on the subject. But, hey-ho the non-qualified Basschat experts know better.

So you're standing by your thread title, literally written, i.e. 'Ear plugs don't work'?

OK. Stop using them, and let us know how you get on.

[EBS_freak]

It's OK people, I've got my bullet proof vest, bring it on, I'm all good.

 

 

What an absolutely absurd thread.

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

 

So you're standing by your thread title, literally written, i.e. 'Ear plugs don't work'?

OK. Stop using them, and let us know how you get on.

There's no telling some people...

...but that's because they are deaf.

[Billy Apple]

3 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

If they assist then they work. If they reduce the damage done to the ear they work.

They might not work as well as expected but they work.

 

This is not semantics. Crash helmets work. Up until the point where the impact means that the person would be killed whether they were wearing the helmet or not. Thus they still work even though the person is still at risk from head injury.

 

No neurosurgeon would ever be so unprofessional as to to claim a helmet didn't work.

 

 

He also said they increase your risk of ear-infections that in themselves can lead to hearing reduction or loss.

 

[fretmeister]

10 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

He also said they increase your risk of ear-infections that in themselves can lead to hearing reduction or loss.

 

Moving the goalposts in a discussion is not a technique that works. This is not a conversation about ear infections. As you well know.

Are you still standing by your click bait thread title?