why buy fender?

[Beedster]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359508' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:39 PM']How two basses compare in an living room at 'polite' volume is no indication of how they will compare at a gig. Playing stuff at volume really brings out the differences.. I'm not neccessarily talking about what the punters hear - more how the player hears it. That counts for a lot.[/quote]

+1. Had I been able to try them out in gig conditions, I simply wouldn't have bought many of the bass I've owned.

And, yes, this was categorically NOT the best ever comparison, it's about as scientific as the opinion of one person can be (significantlym, the player knows which bass he's playing, meaning any peresonal bias could be consciously or unconscioulsy carried into his playing)?

[Linus27]

I have a Squire VMJ fretless and its one of the best basses I have played. The neck is amazing and easily as good as a Musicman which is probably my favourite neck. The Seymour Design pickups are also amazing although I do think it could be greatly improved with some better ones.

As for the comparison, I think it showed that Squire are currently making top notch basses and as already said, Fender have to really up their game. Tone may be hard to improve as there is only so much you can achieve with basses of this type. However, quality, tonal range, workmanship, playability is where Fender can really take the advantage. In a live environment, the tone won't make that much difference but from a players point of view, playing a Fender should feel so much different over playing a Squire.

A comparison would be, driving a Caterham or a Lotus Elise at a race track. They are both very quick, handle superb and give you a great driving experience. Then do the same in a Porsche 911 or Ferrari 430 and your get the same great driving experience but your also be driving a higher quality car, with more comfort, more versatility etc. Fender should be the supercar and Squire should be the sportscar.

[bigthumb]

I wouldn't mind having a go on one of them before I would make any judgment. They all sounded pretty impresive but what got me was the fact that the Precisions didnt sound quite like my ones. Hearing them on youtube aint like hearing them in the flesh I suppose. Still good tho!

[wateroftyne]

Anyway, rather than this being a slight on the current quality of Fender, isn't it the case that the current quality of Squiers should be celebrated instead?

It seems to me that Squiers have just got far better in the last couple of years.

It's a bit like telling Steely Dan to improve because Nearly Dan are doing such a good impression of them.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='Beedster' post='359498' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:25 PM']Probably true of most basses

The problem with the type of 'research' above is that it is focusing on one factor whilst, as we all know, a number of factors determine why we choose a specific bass. One of the best sounding bass players I've seen live was playing a pretty average late '90s Squire through a pretty crap combo but boy did he sound awesome. I'll certainly be the first to admit that my collection of vintage Leo basses aren't necessarily any better sounding than some currently manufactured instruments that cost perhaps 20% of the price of the oldies. But sound isn't the only reason I bought them [/quote]

+ 1 to that

A Mercedes 450SL ain't the best handling, fastest , most economical or versatile car out there but I still want one. Same with basses which are a personal extension of the player.

[saibuster]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359508' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:39 PM']How two basses compare in an living room at 'polite' volume is no indication of how they will compare at a gig. Playing stuff at volume really brings out the differences.. I'm not neccessarily talking about what the punters hear - more how the player hears it. That counts for a lot.[/quote]

Can you elaborate on that? I mean, how will it sound different loud if it produces very similar frequencies, transient attack and formant?

IMO it looks like the only difference would be the ability to get a good setup and construction quality.

[saibuster]

BTW, I'm not dissing Fender in any way, but rather praising Squier.

[Linus27]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359529' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:59 PM']Anyway, rather than this being a slight on the current quality of Fender, isn't it the case that the current quality of Squiers should be celebrated instead?

It seems to me that Squiers have just got far better in the last couple of years.

It's a bit like telling Steely Dan to improve because Nearly Dan are doing such a good impression of them.[/quote]

Yep I agree. It's a case of Fender having to up their game and justify why someone should pay 2x, 3x, 4x more for one of their basses over a Squire.

[stevie]

[quote name='Beedster' post='359521' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:52 PM']And, yes, this was categorically NOT the best ever comparison, it's about as scientific as the opinion of one person can be (significantlym, the player knows which bass he's playing, meaning any peresonal bias could be consciously or unconscioulsy carried into his playing)?[/quote]

I don't know about that, Beedster. It may be flawed but I haven't seen anything better on the web. It opened my eyes to how good the '51 Precision sounds. I much prefered it to the P and Jazz here.

Edited December 20, 2008 by stevie

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='saibuster' post='359531' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:00 PM']Can you elaborate on that?[/quote]

Yep.

Environmental differences. How they sit in a mix with a drummer thrashing away. How those small differences manifest themselves when the amp is being driven harder.

Lab conditions is one thing - real life is an entirely different kettle of fish.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359494' date='Dec 20 2008, 12:20 PM']How useful is this comparison?

Who knows what a bass is *really* like until you've used is at a gig?

Not I...[/quote]
+1

What something sounds like on your computer is not an indication of what it will sound like through your rig.

[henry norton]

Interesting how they call the first bass a "50's style precision" and not a '51 or 'precision slab'. Presumably this is because it's got a contoured body which for me (being a bit of a 51 fan), would rule it out. And there's me going on about the name not meaning anything........

[paul h]

[quote name='stevie' post='359534' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:04 PM']I don't know about that, Beedster. It may be flawed but I haven't seen anything better on the web. It opened my eyes to how good the '51 Precision sounds. I much prefered it to the P and Jazz here.[/quote]

+1

If it is categorically NOT the best test...any chance of showing me a better one? Anyone here extensively used three pairs of comparable Squiers and Fenders in a variety of different live and recording situations? I think probably not. Also isn't it an excellent test of the basses in a recording situation? All we are doing is listening to what these basses sound like once recorded.

To be honest, I have always been a fan of cheap and cheerful as I have never yet found a bass I would be happy to spend more than £400/£500 on, when compared to what you can get for much less than that.

Saying that, I do think that the MIJ 51 P reissue just edges it for me as to my ears it had a bit more articulation higher up the neck.

Paul.

Edited December 20, 2008 by paul h

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='paul h' post='359553' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:23 PM']If it is categorically NOT the best test...any chance of showing me a better one?[/quote]

I'll concede that it's by far the best test of how these basses compare when played in a living room by Ed Friedland through Ed Friedland's rig.

[budget bassist]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359557' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:30 PM']I'll concede that it's by far the best test of how these basses compare when played in a living room by Ed Friedland through Ed Friedland's rig.[/quote]
I think you're missing the point a bit.... He never said they were perfect for everyone and anyone. He's just pointing out that squier have really upped their game recently, which i can vouch for, having tried a good few of their VMJs.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='359560' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:33 PM']I think you're missing the point a bit.... He never said they were perfect for everyone and anyone. He's just pointing out that squier have really upped their game recently, which i can vouch for, having tried a good few of their VMJs.[/quote]

I know that, I think it's important to bear in mind that there's a lot of other factors to take into account.

[paul h]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359557' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:30 PM']I'll concede that it's by far the best test of how these basses compare when played in a living room by Ed Friedland through Ed Friedland's rig.[/quote]

And surely that's the best we can hope for? Unless somebody gives us all six basses to try out in a variety of situations? Maybe Squier should offer some kind of road test deal?



Sorry, I'm just playing devils advocate here but that is still by far the best test I have ever seen for those basses. And let's face it...as much as I love you, to me Ed's front room test is just as valid as your gig test. It's just a review, and someone's opinion after all. And I haven't played a gig in years, so I don't really care about trying them live anyway.

The OP's opinion that it's the best test he has seen is just as valid as your "Oh no it's not!" response.

Why has this turned into a review of the review anyway? Maybe we should review things a little?



P.

[wateroftyne]

Please understand - I'm not dissing the YouTube clip.

I'm merely suggesting that people need to be cautious if they think that's all there is to it.

[paul h]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='359569' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:43 PM']Please understand - I'm not dissing the YouTube clip.

I'm merely suggesting that people need to be cautious if they think that's all there is to it.[/quote]

LOL...this is in danger of all going pear shaped!

You have a very good point and you are making it very well. I think we are just defending the fact that IMHO the OP was right. It IS the best test of those basses I have ever seen.

Nobody is claiming it is perfect, all conclusive, or the be all and end all. But is is the best yet.

You are to be applauded in your concern about possibly misleading the less experienced though. Brownie points all round.


Paul.

p.s. I am now going into the town with the wife and I will say no more about it. Unless the local music shop has a Squier Vibe that I can try out!

Edited December 20, 2008 by paul h

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='paul h' post='359570' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:48 PM']LOL...this is in danger of all going pear shaped!

You have a very good point and you are making it very well. I think we are just defending the fact that IMHO the OP was right. It IS the best test of those basses I have ever seen.

Nobody is claiming it is perfect, all conclusive, or the be all and end all. But is is the best yet.

You are to be applauded in your concern about possibly misleading the less experienced though. Brownie points all round.


Paul.

p.s. I am now going into the town with the wife and I will say no more about it. Unless the local music shop has a Squier Vibe that I can try out![/quote]

Cheers.. I know it's a complex argument!

I just think that there's the possibility someone might watch that clip and - for example - buy 'A' because it has more bass than 'B', and then they get it to a gig and that extra bass makes it muddy and indistinct.

But, as you rightly suggest, it's a great illustration of how there's no longer daylight between Squier and Fender!

[ednaplate]

As far as I can see Fender have got some excellent marketing going on. They are producing good quality low cost instruments which on that review alone sound great. However the Squier logo will put plenty of punters off and they will be the ones who will buy the Fender logo'd instruments. Nobody has commented that it is the CS Jazz that is the only US built instrument there, the other Fender logo'd instrument is the Japanese model which were probably sneered at when they first came out. Basically Fender have cornered the market in Fender instruments as there is one for all budgets.

I made a post a month or so ago about a £2K Les Paul Custom that looked like it had been assembled in a darkened room and played nowhere near as well as a Far Eastern produced instrument which was lovely to play. The name on the headstock mean a great deal in terms of pose value to some I guess.

We buy their cars, watch their TVs and now they are producing first class instruments. A little competition should keep all these manufacturers on their toes and hopefully players will benefit.

[neepheid]

I've got no problem with Squier gear. It's perfectly functional and is a great starting point for modding projects. The main wood of my Fecker Imprecision is a Squier Affinity P (and the only reason it got rebadged is that it had a rather naff looking silver painted headstock which I wanted to remove) and my Squier Bronco has been modded significantly with different bridge, tuners, pickup and pickguard but I'm not going to scrub the logo off the headstock. I WANT people to see that it's a Squier and go "hmm, that's better than I expected".

I wholeheartedly disapprove of people putting Fender logos on Squiers. What's the point? It's just a fraudulent expression of insecurity from one's inner gear snob.

[aceuggy]

[quote name='neepheid' post='359584' date='Dec 20 2008, 02:01 PM']I wholeheartedly disapprove of people putting Fender logos on Squiers. What's the point? It's just a fraudulent expression of insecurity from one's inner gear snob.[/quote]

+1 to that. Who would you be trying to kid, other than yourself!

[bassmansky]

i bought my mia fender j bass on the name alone if i was honest ,thinking 'its got to be the dogs b######s'!it is nice to play and well made but overall not £550 better than a squier cv!

[Prosebass]

I recently played on Kennyrodg's Spunky Jazz when I upgraded it and it sounds more like a 60's 70's Jazz than any recent Squier or Fender I have had my hands on. It just had that Jazz vibe that is missing with Squiers. Neither of the Jazz basses in the test sounded like a Jazz to me , or what I consider to be the pure Jazz sound.
I have had Mexican Precisions that were better than US ones and a Jazz copy I recently built sounded strangely like a Jazz with EB style humbuckers.
I don't believe much of what is said in magazine or web tests as I always suspect an underlying reason for pushing a certain piece of kit. It happens in business all the time, you scratch our back and we will pay you lots of advertising copy !
Car tests are the same.
Everybody rants about Wals but in 1981 I chose a Hofner over both a Fender and a Wal as it was better made and sounded better to my ears but Hofner solid basses are a thing of the past and so have been Wals until recently. Fender is huge and buying one is buying into the club. Many basses are made better and sound better and are less expensive but they ain't a Fender which when it comes to re-sale makes a big difference. And lets be honest most iconic players and images are accompanied by a Fender Bass.