Christian Rock

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='311904' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:19 AM']Whilst I agree that one can be limited by lyrics, I personally think that lodging oneself or one's band into a given genre is [i]far [/i]more limiting than having a 'target' audience that the content of one's songs is aimed at. For example, in corporate (as in congregational) worship times we can (and do) play songs in a vast array of styles, because we are not bound to one particular style. It is the subject matter, not necessarily the vehicle by which it is conveyed that is key. It is not style over substance, the substance needs to be cohesive and logical, that focuses people on the reason they are worshipping and inspires them, and ultimately causes them to praise God. Whether you agree with this being good or not is irrelevant to the fact that this is what worship music is for. (Which is another reason why music is peripheral to true worship, but that's another topic).

In contrast, I hear very few songs that actually make any sense at all (e.g. those in typical rock, metal etc), and those that do (ala singer songwriters) happen to be (to me) quite boring and uninteresting stories. I don't care about the girl you met on your trip to Asda that looked stunning but broke your heart and now you're singing about the whole darned thing, Mr. Ben Folds (maybe not singer songwriter but you get my point). I would call most secular music as being style over substance, at least to some extent, but that's just my opinion. Honestly, I can rarely work out what the point of the lyrics in secular songs are about.

One last thing, just to try and explain where a good proportion of worship music lyrics come from. Some come from the Bible yes, but others are just people writing songs about God in their own way based on their own personal experience of how good he is. Much like singer songwriters do, and yes I acknowledge there are some weak ones. What is different though (again, IMO), is that the content carries a lot more weight than and as I do care about such things, I am instantly drawn in to listen to what they are singing about.

Mark[/quote]

It very much depends on what you want to gain from music.

In general, my music tastes tend to lean towards songs that may carry a broad theme or feel, but happily use non-sensical lyrics, purely beacuse they sound good.

"What a life it could be, if you could come to mine for tea, I'll pick you up at half-past three, we''ll have lasagne".


Its great if you can have melody and a message, but I'd rather not sacrifice melody in order to get that message across. Most (non-gospel) religious music I've heard seems to use reasonably simple and familiar melodies (dare I say cheesey), which lend themselves well to having lyriucs superimposed over the top of them.

Bearing in mind I'm not a Christian (and if I'm honest, have a real distrust of christians as a whole), I'll never gain any fullfillment from the messages contained in the lyrics.

Thats not to say if its a good song that happens to be about God I won't like it. There's loads of great tunes that reference God in some form.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='fumps' post='311928' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:43 AM']What i find almost comical is in Leeds theres "Peoples FM" its a raggae radio station, i usually listen to it just for a change & they are constantly singing about God, Jesus & Jah. It's the most relgious thing i have ever heard.

I find religion very confusing & i find it strange that there is a specific kind of music for religious people.
But then again i find the world very confusing at times[/quote]

"Calling Rastafari....for I and for I"

Haile Selassie Lion of Judah, King of Kings...

It depends how its portrayed and I for one am a big fan of Reggae ....U-Roy I-Roy Burning Spear and especially African Dub...but not every single song is ramming down your throat the wonders of the Lord.....plus Rastafarians saw Haile Selassie as a human incarnation of God....that doesn't go down well with the traditionalists plus the weed......unclean women....

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='311938' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:52 AM']plus Rastafarians saw Haile Selassie as a human incarnation of God....[/quote]


He's a great runner, but that's taking it a bit far!

[William James Easton]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='311940' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:55 AM']He's a great runner, but that's taking it a bit far![/quote]

HAHA i got it!

[Prosebass]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='311940' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:55 AM']He's a great runner, but that's taking it a bit far![/quote]



here are some good lyrics


Yes I'm a ganja planter

Call me di ganja farmer

Deep down inna di earth weh me

put di ganja

Babylon come and light it up pun

fire mi a chant.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Prosebass

[fumps]

class.

[mcgraham]

[quote]So it is OK for you to slag off "typical , boring, uninteresting" secular music "style over substance" yet you take umbrage when others criticize happy clapping and songs to a deity for which their is no proof . Most popular music lyrics are a reflection on real life not fantasy[/quote]

I'd like to respond to this comment, not on a religious front but because I feel it is more of a heavy-handed personal attack.

Firstly, I did not slag off these songs. I stated my opinion that I find it hard to understand what they're singing about. I said nothing about my like or dislike about such music. I did say I don't care about singer songwriters that sing about mundane events. Again, I made it clear that this was my opinion.

Secondly, I did not get on my high horse when others criticised worship to God. I believe I responded fairly and in a patient manner.

Thirdly, and I am not hiding behind this, we have been asked quite politely and with good reason by the moderators to not turn this into a religious debate. I am enjoying this thread, but I see no reason to spout forth offensive comments about God.

Mark

Edited October 22, 2008 by mcgraham

[fumps]

I think if i was religious the Abundant life idea would be where i would go.

[Johngh]

[quote name='fumps' post='311928' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:43 AM']I totally agree with most of this thread.

But the style of this music & the attitude that if you are not religious you are not "Good" is beyond me. i never enter a church or worship but i'm a nice person & go out of my way to help others. just because i dont go to church that does'nt give anyone the right religious or not to judge me......i remember theres something about casting stones in the big book i once heard someone quote to me.
Now thats my views on religion, basic but i see the world as a big place & it's got plenty of room for everyone.[/quote]

+1

Your absolutely right. Even though I am a Christian, I won't go cramming it down peoples throats. If someone want to talk to me about it fine, if not, then thats fine as well.

Back to the music, the last Worship Group I played in was very, very good. The Pastor of the church wrote her own tunes. Very often she would go off at a tangent during the service and we'd end up in some jam session which was really testing as most of us had no clue where the tune would go. Her last album was produced by Chris Bowater (Christian Muso of some alleged repute !)

[BigBeefChief]

Does anybody remeber that "Rave Vicar" from a few years ago? He was based somewhere up north and used to put on Christian raves which drew hundreds on young people to the church.

I think, unsurprisingly, it turned out he was shagging a load of birds and also flogging pills to the younf parishioners! I think he may have even got banged up for it!

Fair play to him though.

[Rich]

It strikes me that both secular (especially political) and religious songs fall into two camps. There are those that are very up front with their message, right from the first line it's "BLAM this is what I've got to say and you're going to feckin well know it", a lyrical message you couldn't miss if you tried. And then there are those which are clever in the way they imply rather than state what their intent is. The sort of song where you don't even know you're listening to a political or religious message until you think about it afterwards. You can use a lyric to say "Thatcher was a bitch" or "God is love" either by stating it every other bar, or never mentioning them by name once. Both ways are just as effective in their delivery. The subtle method even more so, IMHO -- at least then you don't feel that you're being beaten over the head with someone else's soapbox.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='311987' date='Oct 22 2008, 12:41 PM']Does anybody remeber that "Rave Vicar" from a few years ago? He was based somewhere up north and used to put on Christian raves which drew hundreds on young people to the church.

I think, unsurprisingly, it turned out he was shagging a load of birds and also flogging pills to the younf parishioners! I think he may have even got banged up for it!

Fair play to him though.[/quote]


Just found some articles about this. Looks like I made up the ecstacy bit unfortunately, but he was putting it about with a lot of the birds!

The poor bloke lost his job over it!

Now I'm not too hot on Bible studies, but surely God doesn't mind a bit of shagging? Just the regular type, not anal or anything.

[fumps]

Buggered if i know

[lowdown]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='311998' date='Oct 22 2008, 12:55 PM']Now I'm not too hot on Bible studies, but surely God doesn't mind a bit of shagging? Just the regular type, not anal or anything.[/quote]

Was Adam and Eve and his Snake counted as Regular..?


Garry

[fumps]

How would anyone know they were the first......what is normal if they were the first to procreate

[stevie]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='311998' date='Oct 22 2008, 12:55 PM']Now I'm not too hot on Bible studies, but surely God doesn't mind a bit of shagging? Just the regular type, not anal or anything.[/quote]

He doesn't mind a bit of shagging as long as you don't enjoy it. Sex is only for conceiving children. Pope Gregory the Great has a lot to answer for.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='311904' date='Oct 22 2008, 11:19 AM']In contrast, I hear very few songs that actually make any sense at all (e.g. those in typical rock, metal etc), and those that do (ala singer songwriters) happen to be (to me) quite boring and uninteresting stories. I don't care about the girl you met on your trip to Asda that looked stunning but broke your heart and now you're singing about the whole darned thing, Mr. Ben Folds (maybe not singer songwriter but you get my point). I would call most secular music as being style over substance, at least to some extent, but that's just my opinion. Honestly, I can rarely work out what the point of the lyrics in secular songs are about.

One last thing, just to try and explain where a good proportion of worship music lyrics come from. Some come from the Bible yes, but others are just people writing songs about God in their own way based on their own personal experience of how good he is. Much like singer songwriters do, and yes I acknowledge there are some weak ones. What is different though (again, IMO), is that the content carries a lot more weight than and as I do care about such things, I am instantly drawn in to listen to what they are singing about.

Mark[/quote]

Most secular music style over substance? Now forgive me for disagreeing but thats just daft.
The fact you dont care about the asda girl but do about jesus doesnt mean one has no substance and the other does thats called personal taste.
for instance the play Romeo and Juliet is about a guy meeting a girl, it have no 'worship' in it. is that style over substance?
Go and read some good poems. They arnt about Gob but they can move you. Go watch a film, look at some art, read books whatever.
Just becuase it doesn't 'carry any weight' as religious content it is absurd to exclude.

The Arts are about people, and creating something that expresses something of that. Whether that is love of God, love of money, pain, death, love of a girl or a boy whatever it is the expression of that which means something. Really can you not see that in 'secular' music? Can you not hear truth in a a man with a guitar getting up and singing a love song? or of pain and misery? or just sound? I saw mogwai last night, no vocals, just noise. Doens't that move you somewhere? Songs of freedom and equality? (Whats going on, Gaye) or countless others? The way dylan could somehow encapsulate the feeling of a generation.
trite untruthfull stuff i dont like, stuff you tend to hear on the radio, yet christian music is as, if not more, guilty of that.
Its also daft to say this is as it 'comes from the bible', I read in my bible everything from exetential doubt (esslesiasties) to pornagraphic love songs (song of songs) and everything inbeween.

read "modern art and the death of a culture" by H Rookmaaker and some of F Schaffers stuff about art.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I never managed to get past Matthew 6:5-6.7. Maybe my understanding of it was incorrect though.
Anyone care to explain it the meaning of the passage?

[mcgraham]

[quote]Most secular music style over substance? Now forgive me for disagreeing but thats just daft.
The fact you dont care about the asda girl but do about jesus doesnt mean one has no substance and the other does thats called personal taste.[/quote]
Please read my response again, I did not iterate as fact, nor did I state it in such an extreme manner as you are making it out to be.
[quote]I would call most secular music as being style over substance, [i]at least to some extent[/i], [b]but that's just my opinion[/b][u][/u]. Honestly, I can rarely work out what the point of the lyrics in secular songs are about.[/quote]
It happens to be my opinion on many songs, maybe it shows a lack of ability to relate to some of the things that people sing about in songs? I don't know. But I didn't say I didn't like secular music. I happen to have a vast collection of music, and worship music isn't my most listened category.
[quote]Go and read some good poems. They arnt about Gob but they can move you. Go watch a film, look at some art, read books whatever.
Just becuase it doesn't 'carry any weight' as religious content it is absurd to exclude.[/quote]
Again, you appear to be misconstruing what I said. I was talking about [i]some[/i] secular music (I used the word 'most' and I stand by that as my opinion), I did not say that [i]all[/i] secular music was like this, or that I consider all secular music to be like this. Moreover, I said nothing about excluding arts because they are secular or don't carry a message that I agree with or understand.

Mark

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='312061' date='Oct 22 2008, 01:39 PM']I never managed to get past Matthew 6:5-6.7. Maybe my understanding of it was incorrect though.
Anyone care to explain it the meaning of the passage?[/quote]


Don't go to Church is the only message I can take from that. Luckily, being the bible, it will contradict that point later on no doubt!

[stevie]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312096' date='Oct 22 2008, 02:01 PM']Don't go to Church is the only message I can take from that. Luckily, being the bible, it will contradict that point later on no doubt![/quote]

When it says you should pray in a closet, does it mean you should pray in the loo, or in a wardrobe?

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='stevie' post='312103' date='Oct 22 2008, 02:05 PM']When it says you should pray in a closet, does it mean you should pray in the loo, or in a wardrobe?[/quote]

Either, but no playing that trumpet! I'm off to beat up my slave - as long as the slave survives for a day or two it's fine.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='312125' date='Oct 22 2008, 02:27 PM']It's clearly not saying don't go to the temple to worship.

It means don't use prayer as an affectation to in some way improve how people think of you... prayer should be done as a meaningful, personal act.[/quote]


I disagree. Read what it says:


6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly


To me, this is pretty damning to all those "shout it from the roof tops" types. I'd probably include Christian bands in this catagory.

Every religion seems to cherry pick what should be taken litterally and what shouldn't depending on what is currently viewed as acceptable by society. I suppose the success of the bible is probably due to the fact that you can use it to argue any point?

[Hutton]

I think that music for worship is regarded in the same way as any other form of music. You like some and don't like others. There are those who like traditional hymns. There are those who like the 'throw your arms in the air and sway about' type of music. There are those who like the black gospel choir approach etc. If you want to worship then there is plenty of choose from. One is not more correct than the other. Personally speaking I think that 'I'll take you there' is one of the greatest worship songs I have ever heard. Great bassline and a simple and direct message. Horses for courses as they say.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Hutton

[BigBeefChief]

I can appreciate the musicality of a number of hymns, and I also like some gospel stuff (and certainly music inspired by gospel music).

I think its the "eyes shut, stupid expression, arms in the air and sway" stuff that I don't like. Quite frankly, those lot worry me. They should be on some kind of register.

Can anyone suggest some more contemporary, non-gospel religious music to check out?

It'll have to be on youtube - no way am I buying this stuff! Its a short step from there to buying a ranch in Waco.